The Blacktail Coach Podcast
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The Blacktail Coach Podcast
Washington's Ban on Deer Baiting Forces Hunters to Adapt Their Strategy
Washington's new regulations banning deer baiting and restricting scent attractants have dropped like a bombshell on the blacktail hunting community. As hunters scramble to understand what's legal and what isn't, we break down the official language and unpack what these changes mean for your hunting strategy this season.
The science behind these regulations raises significant questions about their application to blacktail deer populations. While most CWD research focuses on whitetail and mule deer behavior, blacktail exhibit fundamentally different social patterns. Where whitetail commonly form winter herds numbering in the hundreds, blacktail rarely congregate in groups larger than five to seven deer. With mature blacktail bucks spending most of their lives in solitary seclusion within small core areas, they represent what experts call "the poster child for not spreading CWD" – a fact reinforced by the complete absence of documented CWD cases in blacktail populations.
Despite these differences, hunters must adapt. The good news? Synthetic scents remain legal and effective alternatives to natural urine-based attractants. We discuss which companies produce quality synthetic options and how to identify products from manufacturers following responsible testing protocols through the RHSA certification. For many hunters who've used both natural and synthetic scents, there's little difference in effectiveness – suggesting this adaptation may not significantly impact success rates.
Beyond scent strategies, we explore whether these regulations reflect science-based decision making or potentially agenda-driven politics. The three scientific approaches to controlling CWD – removing attractants, increasing food availability, and reducing deer density – offer alternative regulatory paths that might better address the unique characteristics of blacktail populations.
Whether you're frustrated by these changes or simply looking to adapt quickly, this episode provides the practical guidance you need to maintain your hunting success within the new regulatory framework. Remember, 90% of blacktail hunting success comes from habitat selection, buck identification, and scent control – factors that remain entirely within your control regardless of baiting restrictions.
Bootcamp & Coaching
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast. This is Aaron and I'm Dave, so a lot of guys have been asking us about a CWD update or a response to the news for the last month and we've wanted to wait till it was finally in print before creating an episode before we responded. So I wanted to start off by reading the news. Statewide prohibitions are now in place for baiting and feeding deer elk or moose. It is unlawful to hunt for deer elk or moose using any type of bait placed exposed, deposited, distributed, scattered or otherwise used for the purpose of attracting these species with the intent to hunt them. Bait, in quotation marks, is any substance that could serve as a lure, food or attraction for deer elk or moose, including natural or synthetic scents that contain or are derived from cervid, urine or glandular extracts. Exceptions hunting on or over the following is not considered an unlawful use of bait while hunting deer elk or moose Locally common agriculture and ranching practices, including salt or mineral distribution and feeding Food that is available from undisturbed, wild, volunteer or planted vegetation, including fruit trees, orchards, vineyards and food plots. Synthetic scents or lures that do not contain or are derived from cervid, urine or glandular extracts. Naturally occurring mineral deposits or as authorized by a department issued permit issued to address a management objective. Exceptions do not include accidental or intentional spills, dumping or storage of agricultural produce, feed or bait. It is also unlawful to feed deer, elk or moose or to allow food to be placed to feed other wildlife that causes deer, elk or moose to congregate. Wildlife that causes deer, elk or moose to congregate. This restriction does not apply to agricultural practices such as crop production, harvest or animal husbandry. So that's it.
Speaker 1:That is what they put into the regs and so that is what we're going to respond to and talk about and kind of where do we go from here? So there's a lot on the website and I recommend everybody going on to WDFW and looking at everything they have related to CWD and how they reached this decision. You can find the presentation by biologists, which is what they used when they presented it to the director and they also used they have on the website a video series from MSU, mississippi State University, deer Lab. So if you go to YouTube and type in MSU Deer Lab, you'll have a series of videos talking about CWD. They're all like two minutes long, but it's a lot of what they did is based off of that. So some things that they didn't do that would make sense but they didn't and we'll get onto that.
Speaker 1:Our goal and this I was telling Dave now we want to educate. We're not going to rant, but there might be a little bit of ranting about this Because I think a lot of us are upset that maybe that it was knee-jerk.
Speaker 2:I would say yeah it seems more like an agenda than it does a science-based move to me.
Speaker 1:Now, having gone through everything that they have on the website, I think that they actually. I think there is some agenda behind what some of the people did some commissioners but a lot of it is science-based. But the problem I found and this is the biggest issue I had with it is that it's science-based off of whitetail and mule deer behavior, not blacktail. And I don't know about if Rocky Mountain elk and Roosevelt elk if there's a big difference, but I do know Rocky Mountain or Roosevelt elk do herd up as well. They're maybe not as big of herds as Rocky Mountain elk, but they do herd in bigger herds.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:But as far as blacktail are concerned they're very different species and we'll get into that more in a little bit. But that was kind of my thought was that was not the best science to do with a blanket.
Speaker 2:And for those listeners that don't know, aaron and I spend a lot of time. We read a lot of articles. I watch a lot of interviews.
Speaker 2:Aaron watches, I mean, we're constantly and I've been doing this for years, for decades, and I've been doing this for years, for decades, and so you know all of the studies that we've done on the CWD and bringing on Josie and her expertise that she brought forward and everything, and multiple interviews that I've watched with Dr Deere, dave Kroll and other gentlemen that are pretty high up in this field as far as their exposure to the public as well as, like just today, I just and I told you this, aaron I posted an interview with Lee Kozlowski, lee and Tiffany the crush where they were asking him about CWD and his opinion was that it's just a big scam. I believe Dr Deere said the same thing that everything that they've done so far with the prohibiting of baiting and a lot of the stuff in that regard that they've done has really not done a single thing to help with any prevention. And they're all talking whitetail, and whitetail very much heard up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think or I remember Josie, dr Josie Rose, when she was on here she brought up the point that the most effective that they found up to this point is getting those animals out of the population.
Speaker 2:And that interview that I posted this morning and, guys, that was on my own personal Facebook page. So let's go ahead and blow that up. Dave Riley R-I-L-E-Y. Let's make me famous that way 10,000 friends to any way, shape or form. As far as the spread or containment of that disease, cwd, with what they've done so far and as far as he's concerned and I know several other specialists and biologists in this area would recommend allowing the baiting and would encourage that to simply get these animals out of the herd.
Speaker 2:To get them out of there. Not just get them out of the herd, but get them out of the woods, so those prions are not left out there anymore. Get them. I'm sorry and it seems cruel to say this to some people and I apologize if this hurts your feelings, but the reality the harsh reality is is that we need to get them out of the herd and they need to be dealt with appropriately, whether it's incineration or whatever, but to get those prions out of there so that we can have healthy deer herds. Saying all of that, there has never been a case of CWD in blacktail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we'll get into those specifics about blacktail towards the end, towards the end the. And so I not necessarily to play uh, devil's advocate, but one of the concerns with, and why they passed the no baiting to hurt up is it as it is growing in the body and mutating the prions that are within the body. It can take up to a year and a half for them to show signs. So that is the biggest reason why they aren't using just the. Harvest them out, that is the most effective, but they're trying to do something to get ahead of even that Right. But the problem is, is it's 15 months or a year and a half right around there where this is growing? Well, if, if they're not showing any sign right, you had mentioned michigan uh tests, you have to have every animal every, every, every animal harvested where don't?
Speaker 2:that doesn't matter where you're at in the state has to hit a checkpoint, you have to have it tested. Nothing can go out of that state as far as is. You get an animal there, it's going to stay there. But, that being said, okay. So why couldn't we have done that? Other states have taken and the units where they have detected CWD, they have placed the restrictions on those units alone. I go back to the interview and you'll hear me say this quite a bit. I think this episode that Lee Kozlowski gave and he was saying and I mentioned this to you, aaron, and I'm not sure how much truth there is to this, but he was saying he doesn't understand what the big deal is. He says there's a bigger threat from EHD than there is from Cwd.
Speaker 2:Ehd will wipe out a herd in in a matter of hours yeah you know, whereas cwd over time, you know, does affect the herd and it is a very painful thing to watch to see a deer go through. That. I get that, I absolutely get that. But his, one of his points was it's not harmful to humans. And again I go back to if we get those animals harvested and we went to a testing location, if we had checkpoints where these things have to be tested and you were telling me that they have a test, that is really quick.
Speaker 1:It's quick and I think that actually was the RT-QUIC R-T-Q-U-I-C.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I meant to look that up with the exact what it stood for, but it is accurate. It is the testing that they do now for CWD.
Speaker 2:So if that were the case and we had checkpoints and everybody who harvested an animal stopped at that checkpoint and got their deer tested, and if it tested positive, I don't know too many people that would not give up their animal if they thought they were going to be harmed by CWD.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, having watched those videos, they referenced some studies because they were trying to determine so, if a human eats mad cow being a similar prion disease in cows eats mad cow being a similar prion disease in cows bovines. But if a human eats a cow infected with mad cow they can contract it. Correct the human version, the Jakob-Kruitzfeld disease. Now, josie referenced that there were a couple people who ate tainted meat in Texas who came down with the Jakob Krutzfeld, but they couldn't find a direct correlation or causation.
Speaker 2:And between venison or beef.
Speaker 1:They ate some tainted venison and they developed that. They've also done animal studies. They did chimps and rats and pigs and one other animal and they referenced that in those MSU Deer Lab videos and some of the animals that they fed tainted meat to came down with a version of a prion disease and some of them didn't. So as of right now it's inconclusive.
Speaker 2:And, like I said, I don't know that. I agree with Lee Kozlowski on that. It's not harmful to humans, but I still fall back on the premise that if we had checkpoints and they were tested, who wouldn't give it up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if I'm in eastern Washington, I would probably have my deer tested. I wouldn't want to risk that that it's not a risk worth taking right and you know I would be glad I pulled one out of the right out of the wild. But yeah, I wouldn't want to, necessarily I wouldn't want to eat the thing so and with anything.
Speaker 1:Make sure that you're up to date, especially if you're over in those counties. You're up to date with transportation laws, having checks done all of that. Make sure you're really up to date with any new regulations regarding that.
Speaker 1:Right. So going back to, because a lot of guys have asked how we're adapting, now I would say a big aspect of this system and what I've learned is hunting is about adapting your methods and pivoting when you need to. And this is a different type of adapting and pivoting than we've done in the past, where it might be changing your set doing this, but you're always needing to adjust.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:So people are asking okay, well, you talk about a lot of sense and a lot of baiting, what are you doing now? And so, well, let's talk about this. What are we doing now?
Speaker 2:We're closing the doors.
Speaker 1:Yep, we're done.
Speaker 1:No, we're not so synthetic scents. If and this is one of the things that from everything that I researched if you are an area, if you listen to this, this podcast, maybe you're not in where you're not hunting blacktail, but for some reason you like the way dave and I talk, if you're still able to use real urine-based and gland-based pheromones, here's what you should be looking for. So, companies that participate rhsa, the responsible hunting scent, so RHSA certified, and they'll say on the packaging, the RT I'll just call it RT quick, but it's RT-QUIC testing Between those. They have to test a third of their herds or 20 or 30% of their herd, entire herd, every year and every three years I believe it's 100% testing. I was looking at Conquest's website so Conquest Sense they said the 11. Companies that are all part of this association right now have never had a CWD testing. A lot of really good information on the Congress.
Speaker 2:They've never had a positive test.
Speaker 1:Test for CWD Correct, correct In any of their deer. And that is even before, I think, they even started all of this. So look for those, because those are ethical. I would say that they're ethical responsible companies and those are who we should be supporting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're ahead of the game. They're trying to get in front of this. They're going to be the ones that I mean, because this is going to be required by every company here in no time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Conquest and Tink's being a couple of those companies that have that stamp on their products. I'm sure there are others. Like Conquest said, there were 11 on their website. I don't know what the others are, but those are the ones that we've used their products in the past.
Speaker 2:Right, tinks is our sponsor, but both of these companies make synthetics, and so to touch on that real quick here, aaron, read the regulation, the change in the regulation. It is kind of confusing because it kind of makes it sound like synthetics are not legal.
Speaker 1:But they are, synthetics are legal yeah okay, synthetic scents and attractants are legal you can't use them if they're derived from real urine or gland excretions, which is well, yeah, it wouldn't be synthetic.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, maybe there's something out there where it's not the case. So we're going to synthetics and some of them when we've talked about is donestrous buck urine, bedding pheromone, and we talked about the Hoda accent rope, which is an ocular gland, correct, those are the four that we've pretty much used. Hot Sense and Conquest both make for the bedding pheromone. They make a synthetic version of that. Hot Sense actually does black tail synthetics, where Conquest is all white tail synthetics.
Speaker 2:Not that it makes a difference. I've been using tinks for the longest time.
Speaker 1:It's all white tail difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been using tinks for the longest time and it's all white. Yeah, and and on, and, in all honesty, I've cycled real urine and synthetics, uh, on my hunts. Not purposely, as far as that was my intention. It was well the. You know the store is out of what I need. I'm in a pinch, so no, they got synthetics and I've never noticed a difference. They work just as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we have to switch now to synthetics. Okay, which companies? You know who's putting in the effort to create a good synthetic? So one of the things I came across is and I can't remember the name of the company, but they said that some companies will put ammonia, mix it with water, put in a little bit of like food coloring and call it synthetic.
Speaker 2:Oh, what company was that?
Speaker 1:So you want to make sure that you're getting a company that's reliable with their synthetics.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because if you put something like that down you will blow the deer out of the area. But Conquest and Tinks are probably the ones that we're going to I would say pivot to, and Hot Scentz, I would think, because they have the Blacktail version just to try them out, and then next year at some point we'll give you an update of the outcome.
Speaker 2:Hopefully we've got a lot of gripping grins to pitch, to show you, to demonstrate the outcome.
Speaker 1:And, like I said, the Hodag, which isn't a real, real I would say critical piece. It's something extra that we put out there, Right right. They make a synthetic version of that. So here's the thing that I was thinking about, that and you can tell me what you think. The idea behind that is deer come in and they rub their ocular gland onto this rope.
Speaker 2:So if the idea is that they're not sharing bodily, I'm laughing already because if you guys can see his face and how he's trying to present this without making it sound like this is retarded- yeah, anyway, okay, they make it synthetic, which means we can use it.
Speaker 1:But as far as I would say to everybody, follow your conscience.
Speaker 2:It's tough because the whole premise of that scent rope is for them to put their scent on it, yeah. And it's like well, that's what they're trying to avoid.
Speaker 1:Now I would say, if you're hunting mule deer or whitetail and you're using something like if you're in the CWD area, I would give it up.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now, being in a black tail area, I'm thinking, okay, I'm probably still going to use that, because I don't think there's any chance of them getting CWD from it. Like zero chance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think I could still, I still feel okay using it.
Speaker 2:The law. I'm not going to rant on it, but it just seems like it's written so that there are some areas that are a little vague on on how a person is supposed to, or how a person can react, or or utilize or interpret. Yeah, and I'm like okay, does that mean we're being told one thing and then told the exact opposite in the next paragraph?
Speaker 1:yeah, I would say that covers the sense. I mean, uh, we're, that's what we're pivoting. Yeah, we're going to, absolutely yeah, and the system is mostly scent based guys I mean that's, you don't have to use any kind of bait.
Speaker 2:It was just something that was mentioned. It, if you are a person that wants to use it, you can, but it was simply the sense is what brings the bucks around. That's what's bringing these big bucks in. That's what's causing them to come back. I explain it. We talk about the first rut, the second rut. The reason those bucks are coming in is because they're looking and you can keep them coming back.
Speaker 1:The best we could hope for was the doe coming in for the bait and a buck being hot on a big buck, which is what happened to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, twice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it is another effective tool in the toolbox. But the box is full of tools.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And so you don't have that one specific tool, but you still got a bunch of tools to get the job done.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so baiting attractants and minerals? Here is because they talk about food plots and apple trees and things like that, and you're not going to get in trouble for having apple trees.
Speaker 2:Again, I go back to what I said. It's kind of vague. I mean one sentence we're told we can't.
Speaker 1:The other sense we're told we can yeah, now I'm taking it as no on any baiting on any right attractants there. There might be a way of getting some food smell in the area where they don't have access to it and where they might not like if you were to go pour, I don't know, some sort of liquid deer candy on the ground, they're still potentially going to lick that up. Correct? It means if multiple deer, they could be swapping spit. So then that creates a potential risk. Now, if it doesn't create a situation where they can't find the food, are you okay? They leave, but then they still smell the food. So maybe they come back Because they smell something that is intriguing them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's just it's. I don't want to say that it's poorly written, I just want to say that it's vague.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There are some areas where I have questions.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll get them answered as we get into this. Yeah, and we had, in this brief time since they came up with this decision, we had three new people added to the commission, the Washington State Game Commission.
Speaker 2:They all three seem to be very pro fishing hunting, so we might have and I don't know who they replace and, and, in all honesty, we've watched other states reverse their stance on baiting yeah, going from a complete prohibition to, uh, reversing that completely and allowing it again and actually encouraging it to get sick animals out but yeah whether we see that or not, is is yet to, or will they refine it in the future? Right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to say kind of the conclusion I came to is the government has unlimited resources to come after you if they think that they need or want to come after you.
Speaker 2:And we've watched that.
Speaker 1:Do you have unlimited resources to defend yourself? If you don't, I would suggest erring on the side of caution, and that is going to be our stance for bait, minerals and attractants. I don't have unlimited resources to defend myself against an accusation and, as I interpret this regulation, I'm going to err on the side of caution. And now, if there's a way that it can be adapted, I will probably try to.
Speaker 2:but I'm going to go with it for now. Oh, absolutely. And you know, to get this reversed. If that's what you're wanting, well, start a petition, start getting people together, getting signatures and guys, you know that stuff happens. It starts with one person. It's got to start with somebody, you know. If that's what you're wanting, if you're wanting and it's not just if you're upset about the baiting thing, it's not just that, it's the same with any part of our. They're regulating the bear. Now, as far as they're doing just like they're doing with cougar, you have a quota for certain areas, you know. And it's like well, come on, you know, Somebody's under the delusion that there's fewer bear out there than there's ever been.
Speaker 1:And it's like that's not even remotely close. Unless that quote is harvest a crapload. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2:And it's just like you've got to be kidding me. Well, we could use hound hunting or baiting back in that area, but it starts with petition. It starts with us stop separating ourselves. As far as I'm a rifle hunter, I'm a muzzleloader or I'm an archer, no, you're an outdoorsman, you're an outdoors person. We're all on the same team. We need to start acting like it. Yeah, we're all part of the same family here, guys, and the only way to overcome this stuff and to get some of these laws back, these rights back, is by working together.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, going back to those videos that I watched, they had three suggestions and this is put together by doctor, veterinarians, so people who can speak authoritatively on this. They made three suggestions for lowering the spread of CWD. One of them remove attractants and washing in. This is why there's no baiting, minerals or attractants. That is the principle that they are following there. Another one which was interesting but this goes back to talking about whitetail mule deer is increase food availability, so creating food plots for deer, which seems counterintuitive Right right.
Speaker 1:But when you think of the habitat that those deer are running around in, food is a little more scarce, especially when you go into thinking about, maybe, the Midwest, which is where this is most prevalent. The Midwest Well, it's not an issue for blacktail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's tons of food.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Acreage.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Tons of acreage and I get the whitetail. What they're trying to do is supply a food source that isn't focused into a little area, but if it's an acre to two acres, that's plenty of room for deer to spread out and feed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's the key is to spread out and feed. Well, blacktail don't have that problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, blacktail, don't have that problem. Yeah yeah, we've got food everywhere and I would say that we have a few deer who come in to our sets, and 80% of the apples are probably eaten by four deer or less.
Speaker 2:And it's usually a spike.
Speaker 1:And it's usually a spike. I had a spike, I had a two by three and then I had a doe and a yearling Maybe a couple does. That came in more than I would say three times or four times they would come in. They were the ones eating all the apples, and that was more lazy behavior on the animal's part. Right, right, instead of walking around three miles and nibble here, nibble there, just go over there and eat, because there's a pile of food over there. But it's not an issue.
Speaker 2:No, your big mature bucks. They're not interested in that. They're interested in the. Does you know?
Speaker 1:And if they're leaving during the rut to come find those does well. If they're not leaving, they're hanging out and they'll eat whatever they can find. That's in that thick dense habitat yeah they're not. Hey, there's some apples over there, I'm gonna go eat those. No, those are in an unsafe spot.
Speaker 2:Forget it yeah well and that's the thing. They didn't get big by being stupid. Yeah, you know. And and again there's. There is a large food source everywhere yeah in the northwest. I mean it's a rainforest and, like antler, growth is very seldom does that. We see a downturn in that. As far as okay. So we hit a drought.
Speaker 2:This area is low in minerals because there hasn't been much rainfall, and so there's not a lot of greenery growing, and so the deer are short as far as minerals, and we just don't see that a lot on this side of the mountains.
Speaker 1:So thinking about with the law well, black tail aren't going to congregate because of food, Uh-huh. But then if we do drop bait, do we reverse that situation? So is that why Washington decided to include black tail and not exclude?
Speaker 2:black tail, so we'll get into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just okay. Well, maybe that's what they were going off of. I don't know, but it was kind of funny because we also mentioned this. You and I drove up I don't know if it was. I don't know where we were headed, but we were. There's one particular spot that you've been wanting to get into. Oh, yeah, Up north.
Speaker 1:But we looked and there's a big ag field next to it and there were five or seven deer out in this field and we were like, wow, look at all those deer. Now let's compare this you, having gone to college in the Midwest in North Dakota, Yep, and you look out in the winter and how many whitetail are cuddled together.
Speaker 2:So it's funny because I was a minister Anybody who's come to the seminars I tend to mention that. But I was a minister before I got married and whatnot. So I went to a Bible college in North Dakota and in the wintertime we had chapel every day at school. And in the wintertime North Dakota is brutally cold With the wind chill. It's 30 below 30, 40 below for months and the wind is constantly blowing. So you know we'd have chapel every day and they would announce okay, so be careful when you're driving out of town. And they would say you know, if you're heading South and you're heading to Aberdeen, be careful. There's two miles out of town there's a herd of 100-plus whitetail herding up for the winter, and the thing is is that they would run across the road, the highway, and so inevitably somebody would hit a deer and total out their car. But they were always warning us, you know. And yeah, there was some years, I mean I remember one. There was a herd of over 200.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because it was just that's what they did in the winter time and we were shocked to see five or seven yeah, yeah, that's not a herd one, two oh my gosh, there's three there now. Granted, I've only done two years. I believe the most I've ever had on any of my sets is three deer at one time. Right, right, and I know you've probably had more, but I don't think have you ever had more than seven.
Speaker 2:I've never had seven. Yeah, I've never had seven, and I mean we might've had. I can't remember Zach I think the most I've ever had is, I think, three.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at one time I think Zach had more and I think Chris. At one time I think Zach had more and I think Chris at one time.
Speaker 2:Maybe one or two more, but yeah, it's nothing like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's not an issue.
Speaker 2:We're not going to rant.
Speaker 1:So anyway. So the third suggestion. So removing attractants, increased food availability, but reducing deer density. So some states like they three deer a day in Alabama.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they issue more tags because of CWD to get the infected deer out of there and the causation or the result of that is to if you lessen that population, then you have fewer deer coming into contact.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just like if you live in a big household and everybody's leaving the house every day and going to their prospective school, work, whatever, there's a bigger chance of somebody bringing a bug home and everybody getting sick.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Same thing If there's more deer in an area.
Speaker 2:Better chance that they're going to get sick, that they're going to get sick, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think that Washington addressed this. So I've been doing some research for another episode that we're putting together about looking at data and all that for your season. But so guys with a multi-season tag have a higher harvest rate than single season, whether it's archery, and there's not a big difference between archery, modern or muzzleloader. I think it's like each year, 3% difference in harvest rates and it just literally every year. It's always about 3%. But there's a bump in multi-season guys with the multi-season tag and if you hunt because you have more days, to hunt is ultimately what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:More time in the woods gives me more opportunities, gives me a better chance of filling that tag.
Speaker 1:So my question would be if that's true, well, give us our late muzzleloader seasons back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of Grant more opportunities at harvesting deer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Have everything a multi-season tag. Now you have to hunt with that weapon, but everybody gets a multi-season Right. Yeah, make them all. Give us a better chance to harvest.
Speaker 2:Kind of a thought, and see my. My initial response to that is is that? Well, man, our deer herds aren't that, aren't that? I mean, they're not white tail numbers no how many deer per square mile these are. They're a fraction of what white tail are yeah and I mean just a fraction.
Speaker 2:so when you start talking like that, I'm instantly going our deer herd can't sustain that. But then I flip the coin over and go wait a minute here. If our deer herd can't sustain that, then that means we don't have a lot of deer, then that means they're not congregating.
Speaker 1:So it's consistency in logic is what I'm advocating for here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's frustrating because it's not Again. I go back to what we initiated and I'm not trying to rant here.
Speaker 1:I mean I not again I go back to what we initiated and I'm not trying to rant here.
Speaker 2:I mean, I got to be careful here, guys, because I don't but to me it just it comes across like this is an agenda more than it is a science, because it's not making sense. And I'm a pretty educated person. I don't consider myself the, you know, the brightest guy, but I'm I'm certainly not, you know, the, you know the brightest guy, but I'm certainly not, you know, the dullest crayon in the box here. And so it's like no, this does not follow the science, like they say it does. It does not. The comprehension of what they're trying to tell us and what is being displayed is not meshing, you know.
Speaker 1:It feels, and it might be because they discovered it last year and they put immediate response into place and now this is kind of a knee-jerk, blanket approach and maybe it gets refined in years going forward if we're active about refining what it really means. So, talking about blacktail and more specifically Western Washington, the blacktail big picture, so we've kind of covered this. These deer don't congregate, so it's as Josie said during her episode that blacktail are the poster child for not spreading CWD.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because of the attributes of this species. Uh-huh, they just aren't Right. No areas with blacktail have had an occurrence of CWD, so it's never been introduced via real urines. And maybe that's by sheer dumb luck, because some companies who are unethical and creating bad product may have shipped, because those are made in areas with. Like Moccasin Joe is in Montana or Utah Well, there are no black tail there, but they're shipping it out. So obviously they've transported black tail into CWD areas, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm not implying that, that those have mingled with the wild populations, but there is a chance that that could have happened. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But either way you're looking at it, the threat of CWD has been there and yet it has not happened.
Speaker 1:California has had some CWD, but it's been way down, like if you were driving to Vegas from LA or that area. Well, that's the only area in California that's ever had CWD, which might have been a bad if they were using some sensor lures.
Speaker 2:Right, right right.
Speaker 1:Maybe, and that's pure speculation on my part, I don't know. The WDFW does have a map that shows everywhere that CWD has been, and so you can see where it concentrates and where it is sparse and it's been like a one-off type of.
Speaker 2:Thing.
Speaker 1:And it's an interesting map to look at, but Blacktail huge food options. So that's just it, except for if you're getting down into from, like Roseburg South, where the food becomes maybe a little more scarce than water sources Still, pretty green, though Still pretty than water sources.
Speaker 2:Still pretty green, though Still pretty green down there. Still pretty green down there.
Speaker 1:Everywhere north. Tons of food, yeah, yeah, tons of food sources.
Speaker 2:And the funny thing is you start talking CWD and baiting and everybody's got an opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and I read a post from a gentleman that actually has quite a bit of pull at the state level, who was adamantly against baiting, and I thought to myself and expressed it so in his post, made no qualms about it, and I started reading back and forth and people replying to him that were pro-baiting and both sides I thought had good points, didn't necessarily pay much attention to how they expressed them, but got the idea, you know got the idea, their point wise and stuff, and I thought to myself, whether you're pro or against, I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but if this whole thing is based on science, if we're going to run our state from a science point of view, then I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Gentlemen, you have to keep your opinion out, you have to keep your feelings out of it. It has to be. You know, okay, what is good science, what is safe practice? And if it's safe practice, then it should be legal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what I mean, and we're going to talk actually about having Josie back on to talk about good practice baiting.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:I hope everybody listens to, just for the education aspect of it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because she knows her stuff, or from people outside the area. If you have the opportunity to bait, well, there are some irresponsible things that you might be doing. Right and we want it to be ethical, safe, responsible.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you're against baiting, hey, that's fine, you're entitled to that, yeah, and if you're for it, you're just as entitled to it. And I know that a lot of guys, especially as they get older, they can't go out and hit the hills like they used to and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:This is just another avenue if they can, for them to continue to enjoy the outdoors and hunting. And I understand Not everybody is that age. Some guys do it and they're perfectly physically able to do it. But that's the great thing about America we have this hunting right to enjoy the outdoors. And I think the guys that are against baiting because, well, it's this and this and this, well it's like, well, no, that's fine for you to have that opinion, but that does not justify making it legal. If that is your opinion, let's look at the science of it and the flip side of the coin.
Speaker 2:Just because it feels great and it's easier in some areas, whether it's for baiting or whatever you're doing, not saying that baiting is easier because food does not make big bucks daylight, yeah, but regardless, if you're probating and and you're you're thinking that, well, we should be able to do this. Because this, feelings aside, let's get back to the science of this. We, everybody here, is after the same goal. We all want our blacktail herds to be healthy, we want them to be prolific, we want them uh, you know to produce big bucks and for everybody to get an opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and go uh wdfw and just read everything that they've got on there about cwd right. What are they basing their decisions on and is there contradictory information? And voice your opinion, yeah, and let them know yeah so the last thing I was thinking about blacktail and it's something that you talk about in the class is big bucks only leave their core area brief times per year.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:When they're in velvet for a while, they'll be more out in the open, correct, and during the rut.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Other than that, they stay in that real thick core area.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:And solitary.
Speaker 2:Very much yeah, very much, yeah, very much.
Speaker 1:So an interesting thing is they said that bucks were twice as likely as does to develop CWD and it was more likely either, I believe, it was the real young deer or the real old mature bucks. But again going to whitetail, so whitetail bucks much bigger range. Again going to whitetail, so whitetail bucks, much bigger range. They're not necessarily hanging out in a core area for 90% of their life Right.
Speaker 2:They'll travel seven to 10 miles to find a Doanestrus.
Speaker 1:So there you go. Are they contracting CWD? Because they will travel miles looking for Doanestrus and they're coming into more contact with deer and they're more of a herd animal, things like that.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:So thinking about especially these big black-tailed bucks, if CWD were prevalent, and I mean we're getting into smaller ranges. There's a lot of questions, but-.
Speaker 2:You would think it would wipe out our herds because of that, because you're congregating herds into smaller areas. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:But it's these big bucks. Would you see a difference in black-tailed big old, mature bucks versus white-tailed? Because they behave much differently, right, right.
Speaker 2:Small range.
Speaker 1:They're hiding by themselves for a big part of the year and they'll only come into their range and only breed the deer in their range. They're not going to go looking for her if she's 10 miles away. They'll go look if she's a quarter mile away so it can consolidate outbreaks of CWD.
Speaker 2:It would be much easier to quarantine that area because of that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:But I'm actually thinking that if you're going to see higher numbers, my guess is you would see a higher rate of does and young bucks than old, mature bucks, because they're the ones out moving around a lot more.
Speaker 2:More. Yeah, they're covering more area in that range.
Speaker 1:That's my guess, 52-acre range, knowing the difference in buck behavior.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's funny because you say that, my mind goes to, because you mentioned that big bucks are solitude. More big bucks are killed by cats than does, because the does tend to hang out with you know, they have the yearling, or the fawn, or deer will run together. Yeah Right, and so there's more ears, more eyes, more noses, but big bucks, which are solitary, like we just said, get killed by cats more often because, it's one set of ears, one set of eyes and one nose which is why they might be around elk yes, at times they'll follow elk herds, I've noticed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah but if that causes them to leave, they won't leave the range to follow the elk herds. No, they won't necessarily leave their core area to go follow elk herds, but if the elk are there they'll hang out because at that particular moment yeah, I know yeah increases their but it's kind of a contradiction to say that they're solitary and then turn around and tell us well, they heard up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So and it all goes back to I believe a lot of these decisions were based off of white tail and mule deer behavior, not black tail. So if I drop apples for a deer that none of their species has ever developed CWD, I'm not going to give them CWD. If any of their species has ever developed CWD, I'm not going to give them CWD. The only way is if I transported a carcass or something contaminated into that area that's how it could be spread.
Speaker 1:Or if I had a product donestris buck urine, one of those that was contaminated if I sourced it from an unethical company. So and that's really in my mind, that's where it gets back to is, I think for this year, you know, we're gonna pivot, we're gonna adapt, but there needs to be some refinement oh yeah, as far as, uh, the blacktail coach is concerned, I mean we're just gonna do like the marines, we're gonna adapt and and overcome yeah, you know and like 90 of our system is based on the whole sense yeah you know, like I said that, if you've been to a seminar, you understand where I'm coming from and what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:That other 10, if you wanted to bait, you could, and that's fine. It was legal and I'm not going to stop guys from doing what they do, but it was sense. I've used synthetics. I've had just as good luck with synthetics as I had with 100% pure urines and stuff. So I think we're going to be fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, find the habitat and the deer will be there. And figure out how to get them to daylight.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And baiting is a very, very small portion of that whole equation.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So would have preferred they kept going, but well-dapped. So, just like we know all of you well, longer episode today. Hope you enjoyed it and we will see you all next week.
