The Blacktail Coach Podcast
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The Blacktail Coach Podcast
The Invisible Factors That Make or Break Deer Habitat
Discovering why seemingly perfect deer habitat sometimes holds no deer is the mystery every serious blacktail hunter eventually confronts. This episode dives deep into the subtle factors that make or break prime buck territory beyond the obvious "thick cover" most hunters seek.
Dave and Aaron explore how darkness might be even more important than thickness alone, with bucks gravitating to areas so dark that hunters need headlamps while legal shooting light still remains outside. They reveal why September hunting demands a completely different approach, with velvet-antlered bucks often avoiding the thickest cover to protect their sensitive antlers and following predictable daily patterns between core areas and water sources.
The conversation uncovers how prevailing wind patterns can completely nullify otherwise perfect habitat if they don't give deer the scent advantage they need for security. Weather impacts create micro-zones deer consistently avoid, while swamps establish hard edges that serve as prime travel corridors along their thicker sides. The hosts contrast lowland valley hunting with high alpine approaches, acknowledging the dramatically different techniques required for success in each.
Perhaps most valuable is the insight that understanding these habitat nuances typically requires multiple seasons in the same area – explaining why successful hunters spend years learning not just where deer are, but precisely why they use specific areas. Whether you're hunting September velvet bucks or late-season bruisers, these habitat insights will fundamentally change how you evaluate potential hunting spots.
Ready to put these insights into practice? Join us for one of our upcoming field days where we'll show you exactly how to identify these subtle habitat factors in person. Visit blacktailcoach.com to reserve your spot.
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast. I'm Aaron and I'm Dave, so this week we are going to talk more about habitat of the big bucks, and we've talked a lot about this before, but something that occurred to me on our last field day locating field day that we did there's a lot of nuance to it, so I kind of want to dig in a little bit deeper to habitat and Okay.
Speaker 1:And where they're at and when they're there and what can really affect that and everything. So we talk about and this is something we've already talked about is when it's thick, but thick stuff meaning.
Speaker 2:Thick while we're hunting, thick when we get out there and we can actually put a stock on. We got a tag in our pocket and we're able to. When we get out there and we can actually put a stock on, we got a tag in our pocket and we're able to harvest an animal not thick summertime thick, not thick springtime thick, because that doesn't do us any good okay, and so after all the leaves have fallen and and the rain is kind of battered down the ferns and everything else, maybe we've had a snow, especially if we're going December for late archery and things like that.
Speaker 1:But one of the things I was wondering is September, so it's early archery, and we have some guys who do early archery and guys who've sent in pictures who may want to get something in velvet Maybe.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe that's their trophy this year. They've always wanted a buck in velvet and I mean you've had that in the past. Where that's been one of your trophies is to get one in velvet. So I was thinking about September. Is it's that thick stuff that we tell guys not to look for? It's because everything's super thick, right, or can be super thick. You know, if it's that old growth area it can still just be ferns underneath and so it feels wide open. But if sunlight's getting down in there let's say there's no canopy, sunlight's getting down it's all going to be super thick, just from the undergrowth really kind of growing up.
Speaker 1:So in September now would the bucks move out of, maybe, their core area? They have that 52-acre average range and that depends on where you're at, because it can be smaller, it can be bigger, but in September and they're going to spend, like you've shared, 90% of their life or more is spent in 30% of that area. But could they wander out and consider like, is the buck feeling safe in that really thick September stuff?
Speaker 2:So and it's funny we're talking about this because I was talking with somebody else the other day and kind of went over this very same scenario September is a different strategy. As far as we're not in the first rut, we're not in the second rut, we're not in any rut. Yeah. And the weather's different, and we're dealing with bucks that are in velvet or just got hard horned, and so the strategy is different in that you're still going to be hunting edges, okay, so that stays the same. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you're going to hunt the edges that are more open. Okay, so you know, if you drive out and you're in the logging roads and whatnot throughout the summer, you're going to catch bucks out in clear cuts. That's the time you catch big bucks out in clear cuts. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, Because they're in velvet you know, and they're going to hang more to the more open stuff. So if your intention is to get a buck in September a shooter buck there are a few things that I would do. Number one I would continue to hunt the edges, but I would find the more open edges, the ones that don't have as much underbrush.
Speaker 1:Okay, and why is that?
Speaker 2:Because those bucks don't want to be in that thick, thick stuff, because as soon as they get out past their ears with the velvet they move to the more open stuff. Because they don't want to hit those antlers on any of the branches or shrubbery or anything like that, Because they're full of nerves and blood and everything and they're growing so fast. Yeah. You know, and as far as the antlers, in the last two weeks they can grow as much as an inch a day. You know, that's the potential that they reach as bucks.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, the thing that I mostly concentrate on is the nearest source of water to. So when I say open edges, those open edges are going to be the closest to their core area. And then, because when I see a buck out in the open during the summertime, when I start looking at onyx, the first thing I want to do is find the nastiest place, closest to where I spotted that buck. That's where I will start my scouting, that's where I'll start looking for the bedroom, the bedding area, yeah, and and then if I'm in september and I want to kill a big buck in september, then I'm going to go look for the first and nearest source of water okay you know, because that plays a huge role in in september in september.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're dealing with 90 degree days, 90 plus degree days and stuff and and those bucks are. They're in the more open shady areas, but they still need water. Yeah, you know I mean all the grass and everything is all dried up. I'm sure they get cotton mouthed. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and just sweating Right, you know breathing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're going to lose a lot more water that way and then I would keep my hunts to first thing in the morning. First two hours of daylight and the last two hours of daylight is really all you need to focus on. But those bucks are much easier to pattern during that time, so that is actually a really key thing to remember. It is one of the times where you can really pattern a big buck, because he's still in that summer pattern.
Speaker 2:He hasn't been pressured at all, so that's the best time to get in there and get on that buck and get him killed.
Speaker 1:And so when you say pattern, meaning he's moving from point A to point B, so point A being core area to water, and then back to core area, core area to food source, back to core area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's going to have a daily routine. Where it's going to be it's going to because he's undisturbed, so if he's going to water in the morning, he's going to keep doing that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:If he's going to water in the evening, he's going to keep doing that and he's basically going to stay in a relatively small area. He really isn't going to move around a lot, so he's much easier to pattern that way.
Speaker 1:So moving along edges, travel corridors, going from point A to point B.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So possibly under some sort of cover.
Speaker 2:Yes, but not near the cover that he would normally be during hunting season or during the rut, and see, that's the myth. And if you come to the seminars you hear me talk about this the myth that the best time to get a big buck is during the rut. That's the hardest time to pattern a big buck because there's no rhyme or reason to his daily routine outside of the fact that he is looking for a doe in standing estrus. That doe could be north of him, south of him, east west, who knows?
Speaker 1:you know, so he may come out the bedroom door one day, turn around and not come back to that for a day and a half, two, three days, because he's locked the doe down you know Whereas in that summer pattern it's a daily routine and you can really get a lot of good hunts on a buck if you're able to get in there and figure out his routine from a distance and then, when the time comes, so something I've never asked you and going off of what you've said and a little off topic, but do our does as routine I don't want to say dependent as a big buck, or they seem like they're more flexible, much more Like they will change their pattern based on something.
Speaker 2:On hunting pressure.
Speaker 1:Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And not necessarily just from humans. If the predation in the area increases, like we're going into June, right, and those are going to start dropping fawns here anytime now, anytime now. So those does that you're seeing around your place, they're going to disappear and you're going to go two weeks to a month and a half without seeing them because they've got fawns and so they're going to change their pattern, they're going to change their routine for the safety of that fawn.
Speaker 1:Okay, and they're dropping fawns right now.
Speaker 2:In June they start dropping fawns yeah. And what they do just before they drop. They get real secluded. They don't want to be around a bunch of you know. They really hide themselves because a lot of predators, a lot of bears, coyotes, bobcats, really capitalize on the fawns right now, so those does just disappear for a while. Okay, hmm.
Speaker 1:So, thinking about those thick areas, is there an attribute about the thick area or are there things that can counteract what might be considered a good bedding area? So thinking about, so we go out and we just look for habitat. We don't actually look for deer. That's something that you teach, Correct. And so when we go out, that's what we're looking for Now. Are there things that, wow, this looks like you might walk out, this looks like great habitat. Is there something? That can. Is there something that can, even though it's great habitat can?
Speaker 2:Nullify it.
Speaker 1:Nullify it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and it's tough. You know there's always exceptions to the rule, you know what I mean. So, in the same way that there's exceptions to it looking like a good area and then it turns out not to be, you could say the same thing about that looks like a good area, but this happened and this happened and this is happening, so it probably isn't, and then it turns out to be just fantastic, you know. So there's always exceptions to the rules. But the thing that I found more than anything is it can look completely awesome, completely awesome. Like man, there's got to be a bedroom in here.
Speaker 2:You know just everything that we're looking for the, the habitat, the, the hardwoods and the conifers, and you know just thick and it just seems like it's just a beautiful area. But I found that if the wind isn't right to them, if it doesn't give them what they want as far as a prevailing wind constantly blowing in one direction, day after day after day, now it doesn't have to be that way. All the time I'm talking, you know, 90% of the time the wind is coming this direction. If, for some reason, they don't like that prevailing wind, it doesn't matter what the habitat looks like. It doesn't matter, you know, if it puts them in any kind of vulnerable position.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:On a continuous basis. They just will not be there. I don't it just. It can look incredible, but you will not find deer there if that wind just does not cooperate. Okay.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, and it would also. It seems like it makes sense if there's a lot of either predators in the area or new predators move into an area. Right, right that that could, that they might not necessarily want to be in that real thick stuff.
Speaker 2:And then another one is how does the weather approach that area?
Speaker 1:Is that an?
Speaker 2:area that just gets hammered by the weather, you know, whether it's north facing, south facing something about that hillside or the face of that ridgetop or whatever, it gets such severe weather all the time because it's just vulnerable to that, it's open to it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That the deer just don't want to be there.
Speaker 1:So would that mean a? I would say maybe a peak. And I mean and when I say peak so I'm thinking the foothills that we're around and we hunt Vader, rider Wood, lewis County, mossy Rock but even down here in Woodland we have a peak, might be a couple thousand foot elevation or 1,500 or something like that. So maybe not the peaks of those, because those, no matter which way the wind is blowing- or if a storm's coming in, the peak is going to get the brunt of that, so is that-.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So let me relate it to you like this so Mount Hood has Highway 26 that goes over the top of it, yeah, okay. So everybody drives up every year to go skiing at Mount Hood has.
Speaker 2:Highway 26, that goes over the top of it. Yeah, okay, so everybody drives up every year to go skiing at Mount Hood, whether it's Meadows or Timberline or wherever they go up there, and then people drive over that pass and go over to the east side of the mountains and everybody thinks that the drive up to Meadows and Timberline and all that is the scary part. But Blue Box Pass, which sits just on the north side, gets iced over more, has more wrecks, is the sketchiest part of that whole pass. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's just a short little area in there, but the way the weather comes in on that mountain-.
Speaker 1:It funnels through there.
Speaker 2:It funnels through there and it gets the brunt of just about every storm. Well, deer, elk animals don't want to be where the weather is the hardest. That's why they follow the snow line down. Yeah, you know what I mean. So there's just certain areas that get the worst part of the weather. You know, every storm that blows through they get the brunt and when I say the brunt of the storm, I mean that could be anything from. It freezes there and stays frozen for the longest. It could be that the wind is high winds there and there's more blow down there.
Speaker 2:And so it makes it really difficult to traverse, especially when they're being chased by predators. Or it could be that there's a heavier snowfall there that can attribute to more blow down, so to speak. You got snow weight on trees and whatnot, bringing them down and stuff all the time, and the snow is deeper, so it's harder for them to walk, it's harder to find food, you know. So there's just certain areas in every drainage that is going to be less pleasing to these animals less desirable for them to be in pleasing to these animals, less desirable for them to be in.
Speaker 1:I guess. Another situation and I remember this from somebody telling me about when they went up to go ski up at Whistler that when they were up on the mountain it was actually warmer than down in the town of Whistler because all that cold air pooled down in the town. So he said it was just unbearably cold down in there. But you went up skiing and, granted, there's more physical activity, but he said it was actually warmer up there because you're more exposed to sun.
Speaker 2:Inversion. Yeah. Yeah, we used to hunt over in eastern Oregon in the blues and we experienced that inversion a lot Down at camp. It would be colder than when we got up to where we were hunting and you know, it just happens all the time. Well, that affects the animals, okay.
Speaker 1:So again, the nuance of habitat that there could be.
Speaker 2:It looks like great habitat, but thinking about the big picture and I think that contributes. They say that the average guy, the average hunter, puts in three years for every record book or, I'm sorry, for every mature buck. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I think part of not only figuring that buck out but figuring out the area uh goes into that yeah you know what I mean so it's not something that you just figure out the buck. Sometimes you got to figure out the area too. Where do they go when it gets stormy? Why did they go there?
Speaker 1:you know, I mean it's all part of the the chess match, but I mean, sometimes it takes a while to figure it out yeah, and thinking about like hilltop you know, I figured out more or during the day they like being in in kind of a bedding core area below me, and at night they would come up to the bedding area that was slightly above me, and we're talking an elevation of 20 feet above me, but it was a bedding area, and so I sat on that travel corridor in between those two points, but there was, for some reason they didn't always, even though I think they had everything that they could have needed up in that upper bedding area, but for some reason they traveled, and I have that on camera. That was all talking about last week, when we talked about collecting data, was that in the morning I would catch them heading down and the evening I'd catch them headed up. Right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So another thing is when we talked about you talked about stages of Jackfur to Johnfur during the locating field day, and we talked about this isn't full enough yet, even though it was probably super thick areas, it just wasn't full enough yet or tall enough yet. And then there's areas and it's just perfect. This is what we're looking for. And then there's this is the. Maybe it's got a year or two left and then it's not going to be.
Speaker 1:It's going to start opening up Start opening up and then, yeah, just absolutely, this is no good anymore. And one of the things that's really noticeable about what's perfect and what maybe I think helps what he likes to hunt is what you would say is the tail end of huntable. You know, a good core area, but it's dark, and so it's more than just thick, but it's thick, and maybe this is true, maybe not, but to me it seems like it's not just thick, but it's thick and dark. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:So we lose 15 to 30 minutes in the morning, 15 to 30 minutes in the evening because it gets too dark in there to hunt anymore. Right, and there were times where, okay, I can't see my, and what I went by was my dripper hanging from the tree 12 yards in front of me, when I could no longer see that, really make that out, I knew, okay, it's too dark, I can't make anything out here. So I would head out and I would have to turn on my headlamp to get out of, to walk the 80 yards to finally pop out where I was at on the skidder road. I could then turn off my headlamp because it was plenty light up Right, right, right.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about that Thick and dark, or I mean. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I kind of let the buck determine that, you know. Okay. I kind of let the bedroom where it's located and the habitat that he's chosen determine and, more importantly, where that bedroom door is.
Speaker 2:You know is it back in there and he's coming out 80 yards before he gets out to the open stuff. It's not as thick, you know, in that 80 yards, it's not as thick as the bedroom, but the bedroom door is right there, the bedroom, but the bedroom door is right there. And he's going to go 80, 100 yards till he gets out to where you know he's. You know he feels like, uh, that he's safe and he can start moving around, that it's that it's dark enough and right. So he's going to stage in that 180 to 100 yards, okay, and sometimes the bedroom butts up right against a travel corridor that almost pops you right out to a little meadow or an old skidder road that's not being used anymore and you have more light there, you know yeah and so it just kind of.
Speaker 2:It kind of depends on where I find that bedroom door more, more than anything. And I mean like, so when bud shot charlie, charlie, he chased him for three years, two years, two years, and the first year he kept Charlie would come in, I mean just after daylight, just after, and he could never get him to daylight. He asked me. He says, david, what do you think I should do? I says what's the problem? And I says, bud, I mean, you're in the staging area, but he's not reaching that staging area till just after dark which was about 40 yards from the skidder road, you know.
Speaker 2:And then, once he got out to the skidder road, well, you know it was fine, you know you could see and everything. But, like your scenario you're talking about, I says, bud, what you need to do is I said we need to move you back more closer to that bedding area because that's where he feels safe enough to daylight. Yeah, okay, so we moved him 40 yards closer to the bedding area and it made a four-hour difference in what charlie was willing to do. You know so.
Speaker 2:But it ended up killing him first day of late season the next year simply by moving at 40 yards. He showed up four hours before dark, but he was still in thick enough cover that he felt safe. Yeah, you know what I mean. So it wasn't a matter of was he in the right area? He was in the right area. He just had to get a little closer to the bedding area, to the bedroom door, rather.
Speaker 1:Okay and that sounds, I would say, similar to so. A lot of what Bud has described to me for what he hunts ends up being very similar, especially to, like I said, my halfway set. Very similar. I mean, he talks about liking holly trees If he finds a holly tree and mushrooms. That's what he's looking for and it's not that.
Speaker 2:And he finds them on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's not that deer are looking for mushrooms and holly trees?
Speaker 2:No, no, it's the habitat they grow in. The same habitat, right, right, right.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting because we went on that locating field day and, as you're talking, I'm looking around and I spot a holly tree.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I was like, oh well, okay, well, that makes sense. And then, once he told me about that, we went out because you and Zach, you were both helping me get my ground blind up and everything. And as we're doing that, I look down on the ground and there's chanterelles everywhere. And when Bud said that, okay, well, that makes sense. But that also to me it's like, okay, that's not just thick but dark, Right, Because I'm 20, 25 yards straight line, Granted, I got to walk about 80 yards to get to my set, but 20, 25 yards if I were to walk in a straight line to the skidder road, Wide open, bright, everything else, but it's again super dark right in there, yeah, and stuff.
Speaker 2:Now in a and that's actually a really good point to make, Aaron, because it can be thick and not be dark, because it's not tall. Yeah. Not tall enough. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So it's that canopy and I have a, and that's the thing is, I have a very good canopy over my set and it's the hardwoods and the conifers. It's a good mix through there and that's because I'm real close to a drainage and with drainage you're always going to have hardwoods. That's kind of the first thing that pops up in a drainage. If you go to the blast area of St Helens, you know the first trees to grow in that area were hardwoods in drainages Right Coming in through there. So but thinking about that, it's really it's just dark in there.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh really it's just dark in there and even when all the leaves have fallen off those hardwoods, it's still really dark because of I've got a good mix between both the trees, you know, and it's still thick because I've got, you know, four foot to eight foot tall salal all around me that is fun to plow through. But yeah, it's it kind of is it's a good mix with that particular spot.
Speaker 2:And you know what's funny is I'm thinking because I just got back from Manitoba on a bear hunt and beautiful country, canada, great, great hunting and fishery up there and we're out in the bush and it's thick. It is super thick, but it's not really tall where we were, and so there was a lot of sunlight getting down to the forest floor. I only saw one set of deer tracks in the area where we were.
Speaker 2:Okay, you know, and it's one of those things where guys, well, it's thick, thick, thick, yeah, but there's still a, there's a lot of daylight getting down, there's a lot of sunlight getting down to the forest floor, so there's a lot of underbrush growing up, but it ain't tall, and that's like going into an area here that has a lot of briars that are down low you know, like in an alder patch or something like that. Yeah, so during hunting it's bright in there and big bucks just do not like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, you're avoiding light.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that they relate, because deer will stand still as you walk past them, as you drive past. They'll lay still. If they think they're not being seen, they'll just stand there. And I think that if it's dark and I've seen it with fog too if there's a fog or if it's dark in there, they feel like it's safer and and I've seen it with fog too if there's a fog or or if it's dark in there, they feel like it's safer and they just stand there. They just stand still. You know, and I think that correlates with, like I said, with like alder patches and that kind of stuff. You know everybody's like a great place to kill a deer is in an alder patch. Well, I see deer in alder patches.
Speaker 2:I just don't see a lot of big bucks there yeah and, and you know, I just don't see a lot of big bucks there. Yeah, and you know, I just don't see whether it's on camera or you know in person a lot of what. You know what I think a lot of guys would classify as a shooter. You see a lot of forked horns and maybe a small tree, but you know the bigger bucks. You just don't catch out there that often.
Speaker 1:So what about and I'm bringing this up because we just end up by them I mean, you got lucky a swamp, swampy areas Maybe not necessarily a swamp, but a swampy area or a pond. You got lucky by walking through a swamp. I know I walked out there very swampy area. A couple of my sets are right next to a swamp. Two of them are right next to swamps. One is I'm 150 yards from a swamp right so I mean well, for me it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not just a swamp, it's not. It's not any swamp, I like where we have conifers budding up on one side of that swamp, which, where I got lucky, on the far side of that swamp there was a lot of conifers.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But the swamp, because it's generally moist throughout the entirety of the year. There's always good growth there, yeah, and there's always a plethora of just a mixed bag of everything that's got. There's hardwoods all over the place because, those grow good either right next to it or in the swamp. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know your conifers tend to rot out and they won't do very well there. But any high ground the conifer will grow up because there's plenty of moisture in the ground and they seem to grow and they'll grow nice and tight to each other, you know, and that creates a hard line. There's always a hard line on a swamp, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because in the swamp will be a lot of grasses and a lot of the hardwoods in the water itself. Outside of that it'll be a lot of conifers and more greenery grasses, and what I mean by that is more ferns and sallow type stuff, and it'll grow thick. It'll grow really, really thick, and so that's always really good, and the thicker side tends to be the travel corridor for deer, the thicker side of the swamp. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that's what I've learned throughout the years, and that's why, whenever I find a swamp, I like to see if it's a good travel corridor on one side or the other. And yeah, I've set up several times there and killed big bucks.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that would make sense as far as thinking about again hilltop.
Speaker 2:You see the edge of the swamp. It's a hard edge.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, very much a hard edge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's never a good swamp, it'll never have a soft, it'll always be a hard edge around it, and the middle will always be a place where no, nothing wants to hang out, you know, yeah, but thinking about the on the thicker side there's, there's a game trail on the thicker side, not necessarily on the side that, or the, the skidder road side, right, say, right is where that was at. Yeah, and I think, with, with looking and and for, like we mentioned earlier the September hunts, that might be a good place to set up.
Speaker 2:There should always be a cool breeze in September by there.
Speaker 1:Because, yeah, water source and everything like that and, of course which we didn't mention when it's raining every day, there's little puddles everywhere. They don't need to come down to the watering hole. Now Southern Oregon and Northern California different story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't worry as far as a water source. Late season around here in Southwest Washington, I don't even consider it. Yeah. Not for late season. Early season, yes, late season, I'm not worried about it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we talked about hillsides and you were talking about north. Is there something? So a couple parts with this. I would say so for hillsides. I know south-facing, or potentially west-facing, where the sun is going to hit it first. It's going to be in the spring. There's more food sources.
Speaker 2:Right and always on the south-facing. We'll green up first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is why they talk about looking for sheds on south-facing hillsides. Now, to me that also that would bring in maybe not well predators, all predators, because even if they're not looking like a bear, might not necessarily be looking for deer to eat, but would still be eating so when he first comes out of hibernation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's on grasses and like grubs and stuff, like that. Well, he's going to like you said the south slopes green up first, like that. Well, he's gonna, like you said the south slopes green up first. So that's where he's going to be getting the fresh shoots and rooting for for grubs and that kind of stuff so if you hunt like east side it's, it's a lot easier to see them yeah you know, but typically nine out of ten times it's going to be on a south facing slope okay then thinking about and kind of wrapping up with these next couple of ideas, but benches.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Now, and I think this kind of goes into like what if there are no typical core areas? So when you Because you talk about the really thick area, and when I say no typical core areas, so when we did Our first Blacktail boot camp we were up Cispus, outside of Randall. Mm-hmm. And we had a hard time finding that real thick stuff that we always talked about Right. Because we were in the Gifford Pinchot.
Speaker 2:Right, it's a lot of second and third year growth, which a lot of people today call old growth, old growth.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so there's not a lot of underbrush or cover underneath that canopy.
Speaker 1:It's just ferns and big trees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and huckleberry bushes and that kind of stuff, and yeah, so but it is still really dark. It is really dark and there are thick patches. It's a different kind of hunting. You know when you get up to that altitude. I mean it's a different kind of hunting, you know when you get up to that altitude.
Speaker 2:I mean it turns into an alpine hunt where you're getting up and you're glassing hillsides and you're bedding those deer down first thing in the morning and then you're planting a stock based on where they're located. Okay, and it's more weather-based there, I would say, you know, in the heat of summer, where's the shade? You know that's where they're going to congregate to and they're going to rotate themselves in and out of shade throughout the day. In the wintertime, it's where can they be? Where the snow isn't deep, where the wind isn't as bad, you know, where the weather isn't pounding on them.
Speaker 2:You know, so it plays more of a role like a high mountain hunt, okay, a high cascade hunt and that kind of scenario because they're, and that was the thing we saw deer down at cispas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when we were there, but when you look around, it's just this open right this stuff we. We tell guys when they went they ain't coaching. No, you haven't found the bedding area. Yeah, it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just different and and stuff like that. I would approach that more of hunting just edges okay you know, finding the travel corridor. You know, and it's not. We have a tendency to make things much harder than they need to be. Finding a travel corridor can be as easy as finding, you know, a game trail, walking down that game trail and then finding where it bottlenecks, where you have four or five different trails coming into that same trail. Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:And well, that's a hub man. There you go, there's your travel course. There's going to be animals on one of those trails.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, and even in there there are places that they'll feel safe. So the second part of this was thinking about benches, because you mentioned that this is where they could be bedding down is benches, so a bench being like three quarters of the way up a hillside or closer to the top. And we talked about when we were talking about wind, how that wind tunnel effect is why they probably like benches, because they can smell everything above them, they can smell everything below them and it all kind of the smells congregate.
Speaker 2:They just lay there and it's brought right to them.
Speaker 1:Brought right to them. Hence, then they start feeling safe because they're using their nose to feel safe. So it seems like with that that a lot of that has to do with just feeling safe. So it's looking at if it's all big timber, where are they going to feel safe in all of this stuff? Yeah, yeah and again.
Speaker 1:Then that turns into more of a high, high altitude high alpine hunt yeah, alpine yeah talking about and then, like then, it's watching some some Nathan Endicott videos to find out how he is and he talks about edges. Yeah, yeah that he's looking for those edges as well, because that's where they're traveling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I openly tell guys that's not the kind of hunt I do. That doesn't take away from it, that doesn't make it any less. You know fun or anything like that. Nathan endicott does it. He's fantastic at it yeah he's very skilled hunter. Can't say enough good things about him. Real, real nice guy and just but it's a different kind of hunt it's not a lowland deer hunt, it's more of a high alpine hunt. Like I'm saying, and you know, there's a lot more hiking involved, there's a lot more moving around and and like.
Speaker 2:So we went and saw nathan down in albany down in albany speak at their sportsman show and great job, fantastic, enjoyed it. You know. But what you? You follow him on facebook or whatever and you realize he knows that area and it wasn't just by hunting at a couple of season. That guy puts miles on his feet. I think he said on a good day he does 19. On an average day what was that?
Speaker 1:an average day, I think average, I think he was like 10 to 12.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say 13.
Speaker 1:And a short day was like six miles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're not flat miles.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it's yeah, yeah, you know, and he's in phenomenal shape.
Speaker 2:But not everybody can do that, you know. But again, he covers the ground. That's how he knows that area. Yeah. Because I mean, even now, looking at his Facebook site, now he's up there shed hunting all the time. Every chance he gets he goes up there. So he knows that area, he knows the travel corridors, he's up there, he's figured it out, yeah, by being up there, by walking those trails and stuff. So it's a different kind of hunt, whereas we're down here in the low valley, you know, and we're doing valley deer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. But, like you just said, he knows that area and when it takes, on average, three years to get a mature buck out of an area, that's what it boils down to, right, right, figuring out the nuance of that habitat, right it's a lot more boots on the ground yeah, and that's, and that's what it ends up being.
Speaker 1:It's, it's that nuance of knowing more than just find the thick area. It's find the thick area and then find bedroom doors and then consider the weather and then consider, right, how light or how dark it is, and then consider. So it's just kind of a dominoes of things to consider right, right.
Speaker 2:it's probably a harder hunt than what I'm doing and you know, like I said, I got nothing but good things to say about him. You know, I wish I had.
Speaker 1:Stamina.
Speaker 2:His stamina. Well, I wish I was as young as he is you know, yeah, that's true. I'd give body parts to be his age. But yeah, I mean, it's a fun way to hunt. My son wants to do it. I got an apprentice that works with me that wants to do it.
Speaker 1:They're already down. They've gone down to California once to scout. Yeah. Heading down here later this month, in a couple of weeks, I think.
Speaker 2:And if it were me and I was their age, I'd be doing the same thing. Oh yeah. It looks fun. It really really does, so hats off to you, nathan endicott. You are the man and with that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and I think that's. We just wanted to explore that, the nuance of it yeah I don't know. I think it's just to kind of keep going and know when to give up on a spot or move on and when to just dial it in even more.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, right, and that's just it. That's a hard place to figure out. You know what I mean, but that's what makes it fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, yeah, it's that. Ultimately, if you want a big buck, it's chess match between you and the big buck, and who's going to win?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, yep.
Speaker 1:So thanks for joining us, and we will talk to you all next week.
