The Blacktail Coach Podcast
We're here to share tips, strategies, and stories of hunting the Pacific Northwest.
Whether you're a seasoned hunter or just getting started, we'll help you turn preparation into achievement and passion into results.
So gear up and get ready, because SUCCESS IS NO ACCIDENT!
The Blacktail Coach Podcast
From Clear Cuts To Confidence: Cully Scroggins Success Story
A chocolate-antler blacktail at 20 yards on opening morning isn’t a fluke—it’s the outcome of a system built on habitat, scent discipline, and patient stand time. We sit down with Cully Scroggins to unpack how a summer-long pattern, a tight entry route, and a believable scent profile turned a thick patch of viny maple and ferns into a daylight magnet. If you’ve ever been told big bucks only move at night, this story will change your map—and your mindset.
We trace Cully’s path from glassing clear cuts to hunting the “right 20 yards,” where cover, wind, and micro terrain do most of the work. He explains why he skipped estrus, leaned on synthetic bedding cues, and treated scent control like gear, not a guess. The payoff wasn’t just photos; it was confidence. Does and fawns kept the area “alive,” the dominant buck shifted the whole mood when he arrived, and a calm draw behind a tree ended with a perfect heart shot and a short death run. Along the way, we pull in hard-won lessons from his college whitetail days—access, permission, and reading edges—and show how those skills translate directly to blacktail success.
We also zoom out to talk herd health, genetics, and policy. From minerals and protein (where legal) to identifying dominant lines like “Scarface” and “Mr. Krabs,” we dig into what actually grows better deer and steadier hunts. Whether you’re wrestling with camera failures, baiting bans, or just the myth of nocturnal movement, you’ll leave with a clear, repeatable plan: find real thick, set smart, enter clean, and let behavior tell you when to draw.
If this conversation helps you rethink your approach, follow the show, share it with a hunting partner, and leave a quick review so more blacktail hunters can find it. Got a tactic that changed your season? Tell us—we might feature it next.
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Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast. I'm Aaron.
SPEAKER_03:And I'm Dave.
SPEAKER_00:This week we are with Cully Scroggins for his success story. So, real quick, it was opening day or the second day?
SPEAKER_02:Opening day.
SPEAKER_00:Opening day. So the first kill of the year. So the first success story of the year.
SPEAKER_03:You didn't waste any time.
SPEAKER_00:No. It's like, why bother?
SPEAKER_03:Apparently he thought there was a contest, some kind of race or something.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We've actually had three, I think, within the first week. Yeah. So we'll get Mark Boone on for his second success story podcast. And then I think the other person declined, and that's okay if you don't want to come on a podcast.
SPEAKER_03:But that was three record book bucks the first week.
SPEAKER_00:And several others that m sent us messages about bucks that they harvested too. Wow. So some of them and trophies nonetheless. So one and I forgot his name, because most of the communication, if it happens through Facebook, it goes to Osh and Dave. And yeah, I just tend to forget names, as they tell me in passing. But first buck with his son. First his son's first buck. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, a little button buck. Which it great. Trophy with the first buck is always a trophy. And but also passing those skills along to his son was really great to see and just gets him more excited, I think.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:So but right now we're talking to you in your season. Tell us what were the combination of classes that you took or the class and all of that.
SPEAKER_02:The only class I've been to was the one in Woodland.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so the in-person trophy tactics.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:And I think we went for like four or five hours, I think, or the one day in-person is easily five to seven hours.
SPEAKER_02:Way too fast. Yeah, for sure. It does go.
SPEAKER_03:It's a lot of information to cover in a day is a lot. Yeah. So you really you kind of open the fire hydrant and just let her rip. But we had you had come and so I know Cully through my son.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:They met. Cully was counselor at youth camp.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:At a Christian youth camp. And he struck up a conversation and then it turned into a friendship with my son, DJ. And through my son, he's like, he comes home and he's like, Dad, he goes, I know this guy. I met him. He goes, he's a hunter. You really need to meet this guy. He sounds like he's really interested in the blacktail thing. Well, that went on for what two years?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Before I didn't even message you, I don't think, until like for a couple years. And then I finally sent you a message and was just asking you like about baiting and some sense and just like general stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And then you came to the Portland Sportsman Show. Yep. And I got to put a face to the name.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:And we struck up a conversation and everything. And I think you left saying I gotta run it by the wife. Yeah. And it might not happen this year.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Tell when somebody comes up and they're serious. Right. You know what I mean? And it doesn't matter what skill level they're at as far as a hunter. They could be their first year or their second year, but you can recognize when somebody is serious and there's I want to learn because what I'm doing isn't working.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Or I just want to constantly be learning something, you know. And so I knew you you walked away with that. Lo and behold, we got you registered for that one day, and then you showed up for the in-person one day. And I believe you told me this had better work because my wife said that you spent the money and this had better come to fruition kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it did. Absolutely. So now it should just be encouragement for her to let you spend money on other relativity. Thanks, Aaron. Yeah, this worked out well. There's proof, and we're good to go.
SPEAKER_03:Collie, just so you know, we don't do marriage counseling.
SPEAKER_00:Randy Newberg does. Just go sit through a couple of his seminars and you should be okay. The marriage will last forever. Yeah. Or get your wife into hunting, and there you go. Yeah, unless she is.
SPEAKER_02:She's just starting. So I mean she's always duck and goose hunted, waterfowl. Oh, awesome. But she actually shot her first buck. It was a fork and horn last year.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02:So we were renting a house and we actually shot it out the back backyard. So it was right before church, and I was like, honey, there's a buck. And she ran out there, handed her the gun. She's never even shot my gun. And I was just like, put the crossers on him, pull the trigger, and she did, and just absolutely hammered him. And she was dressed in all of her nice church clothes, and I was still in my sweatpants. I was eating breakfast right now. Just out there, field dressing. Just gut ending. And we go down there, look at it, and I'm like jumping up and down. I'm like, it's your first buck, babe. You know, and she's like, Well, we I don't want to be late for church. I'm like, honey, we gotta like, we gotta gut this thing. I gotta get skinned up. She's like, I don't care, I don't want to be late for church. I'm like, Danny, like, you don't understand. We gotta take care of this deer. So, like we we actually made it to church on time, and I skinned him, hung him in a tree. It was cool enough that morning, and she was pretty pumped. But uh, I really knew we need to get some sets going for her because she was born with uh positional club feet, so a disability when she was a baby, so she wasn't even supposed to walk. Like her feet were so deformed when she was a baby, and so it was a miracle they did surgery and kind of put a cast around her foot, and then she's now able to walk. But being on her feet all day or having to hike somewhere or do something crazy on her feet, just yeah, she can't like we are tree yell cunt, and so she wouldn't be able to do that, but she for sure could do like a tree stand or ground line, like that would be perfect for her quarter mile from the gate, yeah. Yeah, it'd be perfect. So I just gotta I gotta get her set up with the nice, nice, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Good deal, good deal. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:And I think we've talked about that. That this not only for people who are trying to figure it out, but people who are extending their hunts or maybe can't like uh let's just be real. I'm not walking 15 miles to go hunting, it just isn't happening. I hunt this way because I can manage this, walking in and out a half mile and call it all good and everything. And you know, now it's even easier because I don't have to farm or carry 40 pounds of apples every other day. Yeah, it's even a lighter load, but it's been another benefit is it extends or opens up hunting to to people who might not have been able to. So yeah, almost anyone.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:So you didn't take the field day, the locating field day, so you were able to grasp what Dave meant by thick, because a lot of people struggle with that.
SPEAKER_02:And that was one of my actual sometimes it still is a big challenge for me because there's like 10 different thicks here in western Washington. But that day in the class, I took as many notes as I could because I wanted to learn every detail. I took probably five pages front and back of notes. I mean, just so many notes and stuff, and then I would just read over them. But I mean, even the same day as a class, I went in the woods that afternoon and just went scouting, you know, which I had done a couple years prior. I think what helped was spending enough time in the woods prior to that class, and then when I went, then you start putting pieces together. Like, okay, that's why I seen rubs during the winter time. There's no leaves on the trees, rub lines, or like maybe right on the edge of like something super thick I couldn't even walk in, you know, like and and and that's the thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, we do boot camp every year, and I tell the guys at the start of boot camp, okay, when we start into the locating and stuff, this is now I'm gonna tell you this, but you need to be careful driving home because you're gonna be all of a sudden you're looking out, you're like, you're looking at stuff that you didn't look at before. Yeah, because the actual reality is 95% of us when we were taught to blacktail hunt was to glass clear cuts.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:That's where we think that we're gonna find all these big bucks, and then I open the door to a whole new way of thinking, and you start looking at habitat differently, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh man, I pass a ton of that stuff going into my deer spot, you know, and then you're driving down the road going, man, it's all over the place. And you start looking off to this guy. My wife and Aaron hate it when I drive. A little sketchy because year-round, I don't know how many ditches we've almost gone in.
SPEAKER_02:Does he swerve when like the direction he goes?
SPEAKER_00:He'll start moving like towards the ditch. And we joke about it now. Like I will drive down to California a couple times a year to visit family, and it's the same way now. I'm driving down I5 and oh, yeah. Well, that's some good swerving back onto the highway.
SPEAKER_04:The semi hits the horn.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's one of those where it kind of changes where you start noticing all this, all this different area, and then you're jumping on Onyx to find out, oh, can I do I have access to that property? Right, right.
SPEAKER_03:And that's a good point. You start reading your topographical is just a whole lot different, you know what I mean? You you go there with the purpose of this is what I'm looking for when I find this. Yeah, I'm saving myself time, you know, because 15 minutes I can look at that and make a decision. Okay, is this good or no, it's not where I want to be, or yeah, this is it. I hit it on the nail. Exactly. So it's just your mindset changes, your perspective changes, and you start looking more for habitat than you do for animals. And you you got living proof. You you did it this year, and it's where you wanted to be, it's where you feel safe, and he daylights in there all the time.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. It was it was a huge blessing. When you're talking about driving and always looking at spots, so where my wife and I went on our honeymoon and our anniversary, it's down on the Oregon coast.
SPEAKER_04:No, I just want to reiterate again, we don't do marriage.
SPEAKER_02:So when we go down there every time, I mean, I'll bring my binoculars, and then this, you know, the last couple times have been like, man, I gotta bring the bugle tube, you know, because there's like National Forest Roads. And she's like, Cully, like we're gonna get distracted. Well, we only have so many days to do that. I'm like, I'll see if I can go locate some bulls, honey, you know, yeah. I'm on my anniversary or something. And that's just we I tried to go to like a lake or uh tried to go to take the boat to the lake, like up north and go fishing for our anniversary. And she's like, Cully, all we're gonna do is fish. Like, I want to spend time with you, you know. And I'm just like, Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03:I want to spend time with you too.
SPEAKER_00:On the lake, yeah, on the lake. So before we get into your actual hunt, tell us some of your hunting background, like family background as far as hunting and all that, or is there a family background to hunting, or is it just something that piqued your interest?
SPEAKER_02:So my dad, he's kind of the only one that really hunts in our family. My uncle Mark's a big fisherman, but like my grandpa, he hunted a little bit, but just worked his whole life. And so my dad has been the big push on hunting and fishing for me, and has taught me a lot over the years. And when I turned eight years old, I got my hunting license. I was pretty young, and shot a white-tailed doe, and then shot a couple other does. I think I shot my first archery black tail doe just off the road. You know, we but same thing you guys talk about. That's all we hunted was Jack Furs, clear cuts. It wasn't anything more than you know, than you would think. People grow up thinking, um, but he taught me everything about elk hunting, so I just love shooting anything with a bow. Period. I have gun hunted and shot a nice mule deer and different stuff like that, but there's nothing like shooting elk with your bow or even these black tails has been just an addiction the last couple years. It just consumes my mind a lot.
SPEAKER_03:Yep, yep. You know, I you're preaching to the choir then. Nights, days, yeah. Everything in here is is all archery.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Bears, bucks, bulls, all archery. It's awesome. I think it's one of the funnest ways to it's so personal.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, not just the weapon, but having them in your lap like that, because your average shot's 20 yards or less.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And when you start to think about that, it's like, well, you gotta close that gap because the average guy isn't a fishing out 50, 60 yards. But yeah, it is addicting.
SPEAKER_02:It's so addicting. Where I really learned a lot about archery hunting for deer was when I went to college in Tennessee. So I actually went on a fishing scholarship to Bethel University back in Tennessee. And so when we were there, we were surrounded by agricultural cornfields, timber, oak trees, you know, different kinds of oaks. I had to learn all of that, and I had no experience, like just what you grow up hunting here around Western Washington, you know. And so learning about edges, and then there was a lot of hunters on my fishing team that were from Oklahoma, Ohio. One of our buddies from Ohio, he just killed a buck this year. It's probably pushing close to 200 inches. Nice. He kills a 150 plus every single year. And I mean, they just know so much about deer hunting. And so I just got to take all that whitetail information in. And I think in the three years, the last two really seriously started to hunt, and I got like several thousand acres worth of different parcels of land permission on. And I would just go to the front doors and just door knock, just go from door to door, and finally I'd find a couple, old couple that they don't do nothing, they just harvest their land and no one hunts. And boom, I'd go there and turkey hunt, deer hunt, throw trail cameras, do the whole thing. And I was able to harvest, I think, around 40-something deer within the three years that I was there at college. So you can shoot three doughs a day and two bucks a year. And so you poor guy, we would just slaughter the deer, and we ended up locking down the best piece of land in the area, and it was in city limits, and we just absolutely hammered the deer. And there was some monster bucks there, but some of the Amish had poached them. Oh, and so there was actually two or three bucks that I saw in a soybean field one day, and that they were actually cutting the soybean, and you could see the bellies hanging down on the bucks, and they were just absolute monsters. And I was like, when I found out we got permission, and it took us months to get permission. This lady did not want to let anyone hunt her land, and we even brought her stuff for Valentine's. I mean, all out on the city. Yeah. And when we did, when we got this land, we had she didn't want anyone knowing, so we had to keep it a secret. And I mean, I drive a big diesel truck, my buddy drives a diesel truck, so like we we had to really think things out, and I mean, where we when because it wasn't far from our school, and uh we just hammered them. We had so much fun.
SPEAKER_00:That's so borrowing someone's Hyundai, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, electric we loaded hybrid. Our best day was we shot six does. It was during rifle season at a spa out in the country, and we shot six does before our first class. And and so my whole bed of my truck was filled up with deer. So we got sick of eating backstraps for dinner.
SPEAKER_03:I mean shut your mouth.
SPEAKER_04:Don't come in here and start cussing like that.
SPEAKER_02:Our dorm room turned into our common area turned into like a slaughterhouse. We would take tables and clean them, and then we had buckets of water with meat in them, and we'd be cleaning meat, and then we would be processing meat and grinding them in our common area at our college.
SPEAKER_04:Awesome. I missed out in school. I'm telling you, I went to the wrong college. That is hilarious.
SPEAKER_00:That nobody freaked out tells a lot about that school. Yeah, just some guys, you know, processing their deer in the arms full of blood.
SPEAKER_03:Did they need a professor there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you buy them off with you know a few pounds of meat, but oh yeah, that's hilarious.
SPEAKER_02:We missed seven weeks of school for fishing, and the teachers hated the fishing team because we would come back and we would need homework and stuff to try to get our grades up because we would miss so many classes. So we tried to do as many online classes as we could, but we all went there to try to make it professionally. Uh-huh. So we I have a business degree, but that wasn't like we weren't really after that. We were trying to make it professionally, but being there, we got to kill tons of turkeys, so many deer, and it was just a blast. Made so many good friends and memories and stuff.
SPEAKER_00:So, what are all the species that you have hunted?
SPEAKER_02:Whitetail, mule deer, elk, I've killed a bear, and then I think I've killed almost all the subspecies of turkeys, I think. Okay. I think I have killed a Rio, a Merriam, Eastern. There's one more, is it one in Florida? I guess I haven't got that one. Yeah, I haven't got a Florida turkey, but yeah, all the deer, not Sitka blacktail, or what's the one down in Texas? There's one that's like a smaller subspecies of white tail. Oh what I'm trying to think of what they're called. Coos. Coos deer. Yeah, I haven't got to hunt them yet, but okay.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't realize they were in Texas too. I knew they were Arizona. Maybe Arizona or somewhere down south.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We had someone who walked by, I remember, at the show, and he had like a 90. One that scored a ninety or something, which is huge. A huge cruise deer. Yeah. Yeah. And it looked like, yeah, a small kind of a blacktail, but as far as the shape or a mule deer. And but yeah, he said it was a coups. Coos. Okay. I don't know. I just host a hunting podcast. I don't know anything about hunting. That's why I brought Dave into the mix. Okay, so now we need the story. So give us a rundown of finding your buck. You figured out the whole locating, and a lot of yours was locating. As far as using those skills, because I mean early season, it's not time to use it. What did you use any of the scents or anything like that?
SPEAKER_02:Yep. During yep, through the summer. Yep, I did. I did use scents, synthetic scent. Yeah. Okay. I think that was one of the biggest questions that I had too before I took the class was like, what about early season? Well, because down south in Whitetales, they do a lot with scrapes. And bucks are doing stuff all year round. And that's what I there was some ticket or some secrets to that that I needed to take the class for to really figure some of that stuff out. Locating, I only had a few kind of ideas of it before I took the class. But this was my third really good buck with a bow out of a tree stand or blacktail buck in the last four years. So last year the bears really hurt my set. Two or three of my sets, I got hit with bears really bad. And I think I even messaged Dave too, and it was almost to the point was like I had to relocate areas. There were so many predators coming in, and pretty soon you see the deer just not even showing up, or if they were there on high alert.
SPEAKER_03:And that's tough when you have a warm winter because those bears don't go down.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Last year was a tough year for a lot of guys.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and yeah. There was somebody who went through coaching at 19 bears on all of his sets. Yeah. And you know, we're like, how do you that's terrible?
SPEAKER_02:It's not good for the fawns. It's not good. We just have a huge predator problem period in Washington. Yeah. And it needs to be taken care of before it gets out of hand. But it's already out of hand. It is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But that's another episode for another day.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So you were tree stand hunting. And so you're you were familiar with tree stand hunting.
SPEAKER_02:From from Tennessee hunting down there.
SPEAKER_00:Whitetail. So so that's not a new concept. Because it is a lot. Set hunting is a new concept for a lot of blacktail guys. And me knowing Dave, it's okay, that's how you hunt. And actually, I think the glass and clear cuts was oh, really, that's how you all learn? Because I didn't really grow up hunting. I went out a couple of times, and I think we might have done it that way, but it was mostly like sitting out in the woods with my dad while he smoked cigarettes. Not a not a strong strategy for maybe we were downwind. I d I don't know. I was like 11 or 12 at the time and just had no clue. But uh was this your largest blacktail?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for sure. So my first blacktail that I got with a bow or black tail buck out of the tree stand, so I like to use the hang-on stands. Okay. I had one from Tennessee. It was like a hundred dollar one from Walmart, and it's lasted me for years. I just make sure I change the ratchet straps and check everything, you know. But my first one, I was hunting an edge, and it was an old jackfur patch, and that was only one thing I kind of knew about whitetail hunting was, and then I've heard some podcasts about hunting edges for black tails too. So I was on an edge of kind of big timber and then really thick jackfurs, and there were three deer trails that came together. So I knew that when you have multiple trails come together, that's really good. And then I just started I think I'd hunted through October because it was general rifle and I wasn't doing any good. And I was like, Well, I'll I'll start putting scents out, you know, or maybe go hunt with my bow in the stand during rifle seasons. I started putting some extra scent out and different stuff like that, and then a little bit of like apples, and then I started getting pictures of bucks and more activity, and I'm like, wow, okay, this is worth sitting in a for a set, yeah, a couple evenings or whatever. And I think I didn't get that buck. I've had an old buck on camera, really old. It was so heavy when dad and I had to drag it through the timber, and he was just a fork and horn with the eye guard on one side, but he had the big Roman nose, the white face, just a really mature buck. Big regress. Yeah, he was just massive body. And he came in in November, and it was one of the coolest things. I was actually talking to the Lord that morning. I was sitting in my tree stand, and and I was like, Lord, man, I just really want to kill that, kill that buck or any buck you provide, you know. And I was sitting there, I was like, be so cool. I mean, the sun's shining through the maple trees and some of the timber, and it was just really cold. It froze super hard. I mean, it was awesome. The sun's coming up, and I can just hear them coming through the timber, walking, and here come single file does. And I mean, it was like a whole herd of them, which I was shocked because blacktail, I've only seen you see a doe and maybe a spike or a doe and two fawns, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they're not really a herd animal.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there was literally like five does that came out of the timber, and you could see them coming through the viny maples, and like the sun would hit them, and you just see their face and some of their body, and then they'd kind of go through the shade. And then they started munching on my apples, and you could hear them chewing, and it was just really cool. They're smelling around, and then they all turned around, and you could see that old buck coming through the timber, and the sun was hitting him, and he was lip curling. It was I was shaking so hard. It was like when a bull elk was screaming in your face. It was that kind of shaking, and I mean, plus it was cold, so it was just like extreme shakes. And he came in 20 yards, and I just absolutely smoked him, and it was just like clockwork, it was perfect. He ran down there, piled up. I called dad, he came and helped me, and and then the next year I had been watching Bucks doing more scents, doing more feeding, keeping up on the herd and different stuff. And then I think at that point I had messaged Dave and gotten kind of some general info about like hey, feeding and just some general stuff before I took the class, and that helped me. And uh, I had a really big the big one of the biggest fork and horns I've ever seen in person, not online or anything, but just in my life, you know. Huge, really mature Roman-nosed fork and horn with big eye guards, and he's super tall, not wide, but narrow and really tall. And uh he actually came in on October, I think it was like 22nd, it was right before a rain. So Dave has talked about that on the podcast. There was literally a storm coming in, and I I saw it, and I was like, man, if there's a day that deer are gonna move, maybe it's right before this rain, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02:And I was in that stand and he came in to check my scent, and I smoked him at 20 yards. And unfortunately, I thought I made an absolute I mean the I watched the shot go right behind the shoulder, complete pass-through, beautiful blood on the arrow, not bubbles, but r bright red. And we ended up I went, gave him like an hour, hour and a half. Dad showed up, and we tracked that buck for man, it was a long ways. And we would stop and give him more time, and he bedded down and ended up finding that buck later on, but I I lost him. He was really unfortunate. I found him, but it was in stuff that was so thick, and yeah, it made it makes you sick. But I mean, at least there was kind of a closing to the book, you know. There was a closing to that.
SPEAKER_03:But you hunt long enough, it's gonna happen at some point, you know.
SPEAKER_02:And that that's what was hard was it wasn't like, oh shoot, it was a gut shot or anything. I mean, it looked so perfect, and he ran on a dead sprint, like did the kick, everything. And I mean, I I was like, dead deer, he's dead on his feet. You know, I was listening to hear him crash and he didn't, but I ended up finding that buck. And then this year, it was just it was a huge blessing. You know, my wife is telling me because I got my bowl on September 9th, I got the buck on September 1st, so I was done. And so my wife was telling me, I think, I think God wants you elsewhere this season, and I'm like, man, I don't know. Like, I gotta get a set for you, honey. Like, I need to get from my dad. You're not hearing from God. Yeah, yeah. That was he's just blessed me this year so much. I mean, all glory to him. Because I mean, for it to happen on opening morning, and I'd watch this buck the year prior, had kind of found this area, seen how many bucks were there, and they've really this area where they're in, it seems like the summertime there, like specifically in this kind of bedding area, like that is their summertime spot. Okay. And so, I mean, during the rut last year I had cameras there. I tried running some scents. I didn't know a lot of the specifics because I hadn't taken the class yet, but all I had was like one fork and horn from like October 1st through you know the rest of the year. And last year I had a general rifle tag, so I couldn't archery hunt this buck that I had on camera. I tried to get the multi-dear leftover, but I missed it. I was on a skid steer and I got distracted and I missed it by like 30, 40 minutes or something, you know, and I my heart just sank. I looked at down, I was like, I'm not gonna kill that buck. I know I'm not because he's gonna be there. You know, my best chance was that archery because they're there all the time. And so this year I was like, I'm getting that multi-dear tag. And so then you kill it on the first yeah, literally. I was at the door in Sportsman's an hour before they opened. I had a guy race me to the counter and I beat him there. Uh-huh. And I got to the counter, they wrote my name down. I mean, I was like, I am getting like if I miss this, because I had put in for special hunts, uh-you know, for rifle like maybe any ad or some of the hunts back east. So I was kind of screwed because I didn't get the multi-deer. So I was like, I gotta get that leftover, you know, multi-deer text. I ended up getting it, and it was just meant to be. And I had watched this buck from probably this spring, put my cameras out, and then through the whole summer, and the more that I did some of the stuff that you taught us in the class, the more he started daylighting and daylighting. And especially when he was in his velvet, he would daylight like all the time. And then I just knew just like the Whitetails back easy, as soon as they shed that velvet, like everything in their mind changes, you know, and so I was really worried about that, but I just kind of stuck with the process, and that morning was really special. Like I got up, went in there in the dark. I mean, I ended up Dave talks about like having a scent-free bag and scent-free everything, and I went to the whole extent of all that because I was like, if there's one thing, I don't want to blow this buck out of here.
SPEAKER_03:So I ended up going Can I just say that wives love me for that? Every time somebody says that there's a wife out there going, Yeah, thanks, Dave. It's more money they spent, you know, on it's just on all the products.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think it works. I did everything on the set, I tried to be completely scent-free as I could, and I actually was really worried that I was gonna bump this buck in the morning because I remember that happening a lot, and I've had it happen around here now, going to my stands, but back east for Whitetail, you just hear them blowing, and that just god just makes you sick on your way to the stand. You're like, Well, there goes that, you know, because everything that blow just echoes through the through the woods, yeah. They know it is and so I got in my stand, didn't hear anything blow, so I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, it's a miracle. And it was actually a there, it was a real wet morning for September because it had been really dry, and it was just a misty, like that beach weather, you know, I just socked in the fog, the mist. It was really it was enough moisture you can hear it coming out of the leaves, hitting the ground. And so when it got light out, there was a doe came running behind me with a fawn, and she was like on the run. And I was like, Man, that's weird. And then here's this what I I think I call him big, I think it was the forked horn, I call him big fork or something on my computer, and he was chasing that doe with a fawn. And I don't know if he was just messing around or he was just a little just I don't know what the deal is, but it was in September, he was chasing her. And then he just split off onto the main trail that kind of goes to my set. And he hung around that set. I mean, I could have shot him 30 times. He just wouldn't leave. He would sit there and he'd look around. He would look around. And I mean, it got daylight, and finally he crept off. And the stuff that I'm hunting, it's there's a lot of big ferns there too, and it's brushy and stuff too. So I mean, as soon as they it's crazy, as soon as they come out of that set, they're gone. I mean, you could see their ears maybe or see movement, but that's all you see, you know. And so the Doe and Fawn left, and then there was just so much action that morning, it was insane for just that one set. It was like crazy. I saw it doe and fawn, and then another doe came out with two fawns, and then two spike bucks came out and was harassing her fawns, just smelling them like they were rutting up and stuff. They were just being real ruddy almost. It was really weird. And so they were smelling those fawns, and then that mama did not. Man, when she she was kind of like 50, 60 yards away, and when she saw those bucks messing with those fawns, she was just on a dead run and she was kicking those things and chasing. It was like a circus that morning. All around my stand, they're running through the woods. I'm like, this is the coolest thing. I should have videotaped it. It was so cool.
SPEAKER_00:It's cool.
SPEAKER_02:And oh man.
SPEAKER_00:That's the coolest thing, I think, for me about set hunting is just how close you are to these animals. Yeah, and you get to see all kinds of different stuff like that happening that you never see sitting in a clear ever.
SPEAKER_02:Like for sure. And that was, I think, the biggest thing I learned about this season, or the one day I sat in a stand, I I've learned so much that day was the behavior. So my wife, she loves horses, so she always talks about how they communicate without saying anything. And that day I learned so much of how deer communicate by just gestures and stomping their hooves. Everything they didn't make a peep out of their mouth, but they said everything with her ears, with her facial expression. I mean, just the way they she moved, she maneuvered. I mean, there was so much communication there, but it was not vocal at all. And so it was really cool to watch all that happen and just get to see her get mad, you know, and pin her ears back. And she ended up kicking the the tail end of one of the spikes, and he tucked his tail and he took off and he was gone. And I was like, Man, this is so cool, you know. Thank you, Lord. And they were sitting there, she was still chasing around, and she's kind of feeding a little bit. And then I think it was about sometime 7:30-ish, maybe, I think. And in the dark part of the timber, there's an area that's really dark, and so it's got some viny maple and some fur in there, and it's just just dark. And that doe did something that I didn't expect her to do because the wind was perfect. It hit me in the face, and that doe blew like she got spooked. And the other spike and her little fawns kind of took off in the brush, and then they turned and were looking back towards that dark area in the timber. I thought, what the heck? I said she didn't smell me. You know, there's no way she smelled me. The wind's great. I'm way up here in a tree, 20 feet. And then I pulled up my binoculars, and all I saw was the brown tines coming through the ferns. Oh, and then it would disappear, and then you would see them again. And they all it was like they all stepped back to get out of the way of him, and she was just didn't let her fawns go over there. The spike was really scared.
SPEAKER_03:Funny when you bring a dominant buck into the picture, how the mood of the whole place just changes.
SPEAKER_02:It was insane to watch.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, they just it's kind of a fearful respect that they have for that dominant buck, you know, because they all just kind of back off, and it's whatever he wants to do, he's gonna do everybody else. You're just a spectator right now.
SPEAKER_02:You know what I mean? Yep. It was that was really cool to watch. I mean, I've never seen nothing like that. They all did exactly what you just said, and he came in right down one of the major trails that they have, right where the big forking horn was, is actually, and I got to watch that forking horn kind of see where he kind of it was crazy to kind of watch him, he would kind of zigzag through the timber. So, like hit I don't know if there was a trail that he was specifically on or if he was just checking stuff, or you could tell how sneaky he was going through the it was really cool to watch him, and then he just finally disappeared. But the big buck came in, he got right behind a tree, and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna take my time. I know my set's at 20 yards, so just a piece of cake shot. And so when he got behind that tree, I figured I'd just draw back. So it was a few minutes sitting there just watching him, and like you guys have talked about, don't just stare at the horns because that's the more my heart starts pounding, you know. I'm just trying to look at the body because once I saw the horns, I'm like, oh my gosh. He and the last picture I had gotten, I've had terrible luck with my cell cam this a couple of them this summer. I don't know if it's because they're finally getting old. They work great for like a year or two, yeah, and then I've just had a lot of problems. So it was a bummer that my camera died like four days before season. So I just went in there like the last picture I had was him with bloody white horns, and it was a daylight picture, but I didn't know if he had daylight anymore, went nocturnal. And so it was, yeah, I was my heart was pounding. He went behind the tree. I drew back, and I just took my time and just made the perfect shot. And when I when the arrow, the Luminoch blew through him, completely complete pass through, heart shot. I watched as he ran by my stand, and when he's running, his legs were wobbling, like he was dead on his feet. That's and then I watched him pile up right there. That was a good feeling just to watch him die. I mean, there's nothing worse than like, man, I don't know where I hit him yet. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's where the Luminocs just help you to show you where your, you know, where your shot placement was. And then first person I call was my wife, and I'm like, he's down. And we made a funny bet because I had a mustache for like a while, and I love my mustache. And everybody else at church was like, dude, I'm gonna grow a mustache too. And it's been heck of an inspiration. And she's like, I really love your goatee. And so she's like, If you kill that big buck, how about you shave your mustache? And I'm like, the odds. I'm like, okay, all right. And then that night I'm just at home, just you know, shaving that mustache right off. It's gone.
SPEAKER_04:Well worth it though.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was so how far, so 20-yard shot, how far was your set from the gate from where you walked in?
SPEAKER_02:Probably 300 yards. Okay, not far at all.
SPEAKER_00:Not far at all. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing, just as an aspect of this of those big bucks, yeah, are right there. Yep. If the good habitat is there, they're there.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. And a lot of misnomers that we just talked about here. He said all summer I'm getting daylight pictures of him.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Those bucks, if they're in the right habitat, they're gonna daylight just as much as the dew out there. They're not just nocturnal like everybody thinks, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:And I tell guys at the seminars in the classes and whatnot, they're moving around in that thick stuff all day long. All day. And the fact that you were getting pictures all summer long, it wasn't just a one-time thing. No, it was like, okay, all day long. And then he shows up opening morning, he's not in velvet anymore.
SPEAKER_02:No, he was dark horned, which I love. Yeah, which I which I was like.
SPEAKER_03:That's beautiful, beautiful bugs, just those chocolate, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Those chocolate.
SPEAKER_03:You could tell he'd been raking on the furs.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, you could see that that hey, it it doesn't matter, they're not nocturnal any more than the does are. Yeah, you know, it's true. It's where you're looking. So there's that misnomer, and then like Aaron was saying, just all these things that we've been taught or told rather, finding out that they're not all true.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:And it's no knock against anybody.
SPEAKER_00:It's just sometimes we take things at face value because somebody else said it, or somebody else who Well, we've talked about this, that and we we've actually brought it up at a c in some of the classes of these are things that we learn from our dads, our grandfathers. Yeah, yeah, you know, or the special people we respect Man that's in our life that's teaching us. And we don't want what we're saying, this is just a different way of hunting. But it's not to say that everything that they taught you was bad, it's just this is a different way. And to let go of something from someone that you've yeah so respected, and just be like, Okay, I'm not going to do it this way, I want to try it this way.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right. But I mean, at the same time, if you're doing something that has not produced the results that you've desired, change it. Yeah, and you've been doing it for year after year after year, and you're no closer to having success with that particular whatever it is that you're implementing into your hunt, well, you know, common sense would cause you to think, okay, well, maybe I need to do something different. So, but no, that's that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:So thinking about you said you were using some of the pheromones early. So, like the Evercom, synthetic Evercomm or Dopey or Yep, the Evercomm was one.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, then just you know, a regular dopey, not a like a ester. No estrus, yeah. No estrus. I think that was a big one. Okay. And so just doing that really, I was telling Dave, I think the day that you called and asked to do the podcast and stuff, I was like, Dave, I couldn't believe it. I mean, I had pictures of this buck. He I had one picture of him hardhorned and he was bedding down in front of my camera. Right. And I think the thing that helps the most too is that the other deer, the does, and even the fawns, which is super important, are are PN and maybe betting for a few minutes and get up and go move. Right. They're leaving that bedding pheromone there for you and replenishing it. Yeah, nothing more natural than that.
SPEAKER_03:It's funny when you start realizing scents really do work when they're used the correct way. Yep, it's a game changer. It's an absolute game changer. I mean, you found this buck, you did the locating, you found this buck, and then you were able to create an illusion that kept that buck coming back, not only coming back, but the fact that he's betting there means that he feels safe, you know. This is a place where he's gonna come in and relax. Yeah, and that's exactly what you want.
SPEAKER_00:And it is interesting to thinking about because it's synthetics, and I know a lot of guys with the change in the laws were worried about synthetics and whether or not they work. Well, that proves that they're buying it, they're they're believing that that's you know, dophermones that are being left behind. Now, did you try to you can't bait? So was there anything and they came in and were feeding around there that you said was anything that you tried to do that maybe left sense or anything food related or not really.
SPEAKER_02:So I think it helped to the year that we could bait. I was baiting pretty hard. Okay, hot and heavy, giving them the minerals. So I think it's just a real big bummer that we can't now because I think I got to see just in one year the health of the herd, even the small bucks that were like little forked horns or little three points. I mean, I had I have one I call Mr. Krabs, and he was a buck I was like, man, he'd be hard to pass up. I think he looks a little more mature than the buck I shot this year, like he looks maybe a year or so older. But he he blew up in one year, and you know, he was hitting they were hitting the trophy rock. But I think the coolest part was watching the fawns when they're first born or and the mama hitting the protein and hitting the salt that first year we could do that when it was legal, and I think just thinking that man, that's actually really good for him because she just burned all these nutrients and different stuff, having this baby. And I think, man, if you start little bucks like that young, I mean, think about when they get to four or five years old and they're gonna be able to do it. Oh, absolutely, yeah, they're gonna be monsters, yeah. Either their body or that's why I tell guys, you're managing a deer herd.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you you really are, and you're experiencing a call, like we have spots that we hunt year after year after year, and we've watched these bucks from the time that they were fawns till the time where it's like, okay, they're on the hit list this year, you know. And that's always fun to have that history with them and being able to look back and say, okay, I was a part of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's super cool.
SPEAKER_03:And that dough is healthy, and she's popping out fawns, and certain doughs will pop out just bucks, and certain doughs will pop out just doughs, you know. But you're able to keep your doughs healthy, and that is key. That is key to the survival rate of those fawns, to the caliber of buck that she puts out. And man, if you can keep you find a place with a good gene pool, you want to keep that place healthy. You just want to keep everything I can to keep them from getting sick, and even recovering from injuries.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. I think it was hit by a car, but it didn't kill him.
SPEAKER_03:Had a broken leg.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it went in because he went in and I think it was last December and dumped a bunch of minerals in, and that buck came in and started hitting those minerals and basically survived those injuries. That's awesome. And now we don't have that as an option anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think there's a chance that they will allow that someday, or do you think it's over?
SPEAKER_03:I hear guys say it all the time.
SPEAKER_00:They have reversed it in other states.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I've caught myself saying it as well that once they take something, we never get it back. And I don't want to be that kind of Debbie Downer. Because we we've made some huge strides this past year with that game commission. Yeah, huge strides. Yep. I think there's a chance, maybe in the future, I'm hoping there is, because that law was made based on emotion. Yeah, there's just flat out emotion. There's no it's not scientifically based. It just isn't. And the guys that think that baiting is a slam dunk haven't baited. Not at all. You know, and going back to what we were just talking about, keeping your deer herd healthy, it's so important. It is, especially down here in Southwest Washington, where we were hit hard with that hair loss. When they still they never figured it out, they just thought it was a hair mite.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no, it's yeah, hair mite. And the ones I researched this for our listeners, it was some form of a hair mite or flea. And the ones that survived it, so basically they bred the immunity to it into their offspring.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So now the hair loss uh from what it sounds like, it won't come back because they have that the ones that survived have that immunity to it.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:And are able to fight it off.
SPEAKER_03:When we did have it, it decimated our deer herd down here. I mean I was talking to guys who who were going out and they weren't seeing a single deer all season. Guys that were deer killers. I again I hope it does. I think the law was made out of emotion. I don't think that it there's no science to back it. I posted something by Ted Nugent, who went before the DNR in Michigan, and made some great points because they took away baiting there, and you can't use minerals or anything like that. And he made some spectacular points. And go to my Facebook and you'll see it. But you know, this whole CWD.
SPEAKER_02:It's never been an you said there's never been black. There's never been a case.
SPEAKER_03:There's never been a case in blacktail, and the reason is because blacktail, one of the main reasons is, and we kind of said this earlier, is blacktail aren't herd animals.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, and they have such a small range.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. They're they're the core area, their range, and you hear me say it in the seminars, 51 acres or less.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And as Dr. Josie Rose, who came on and we did the whole CWD episode with her, which was great. She said blacktail are kind of the poster child for not spreading it because of their behavior. So we'll see. It's one of those where we need to be active. And at the time of the recording, it they're open for setting seasons and regulations. We need to always take it the opportunity to keep our feedback.
SPEAKER_03:Right, your congressman.
SPEAKER_00:At all times.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Be the squeaky wheel.
SPEAKER_00:But getting back.
SPEAKER_03:That's another episode for a different time.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. But I mean, it's always good to talk about those topics.
SPEAKER_03:Now let's talk about wolves.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. So great. Do you have a target bug for next year? Already?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think it's Mr. Krabs right now. And I think this year I kind of wish I would have had more than one set. So I did have some cameras out this summer, but I just had so many problems with my cameras that it kind of had I had two other sets kind of going, and I just had to scratch them. And then I kind of threw all my what would you call that? Everything in one basket, you know, on that one buck. And so, you know, I hear you guys talk, it's kind of a risk too, because things can happen, things can change, you know, he gets hit by a car or or someone else shoots him, or you know, Predator gets him. Or you lose them. Yeah, I've heard that story. I mean, things can happen. So I mean, I kind of I just got really blessed this year. Yes. And absolutely so I mean it's still not too late to go get some sets going, especially for like my dad or my wife. You know, so I'm planning on this week trying to get out there and put some of those scents out and some cameras. And I just have manual, cheap, muddy cameras that work just fine. But uh yeah, I need to get some new cell cameras and stuff.
SPEAKER_03:When I first started this, they didn't have cell cameras. Yeah, it was the string across the path, and it would just trip and it you'd know what time the animal was coming by. You didn't know what it was. I mean, that's how old I am, you know. And so, but yeah, you're saying I got the old ones. It's just like, you know what? Those are that old. It's a step up from where I started. So, but that's awesome. Do you got pictures of Mr. Krabs? I do have pictures. Would you mind us if we send them to us? We could post them.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That would be awesome. You don't have to tell us where he's at. No tell him creek, or yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Just send me the waypoint and I'll make sure that nobody goes after him.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's one of those things where and I've talked to Dave about this. I've got and just with this system, and when you figure out how to locate. So I've got three sets that I sort of monitor, but I'm working one in particular, but I have multiple shooter bucks. And so it's almost like, well, gosh, I don't know. Do I go after this one next year? Do I go after this one? I think maybe if he blows up, I'll go after him and postpone going after this. And it's yeah, it's kind of like it's a nice problem to have. It's a nice problem to have.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. I had seven bucks on this set this summer. Last year, I think there were six, and then I think there was a new little butt buck or spike added to that. And right on. They kind of just get a little bit bigger, you know, if you were to line them up. There's the little fork and horn, there's a little three-point, there's little crabs, Mr. Krabs, and then the one we called Scarface, which I think, you know, my wife named him that because some of the pictures he almost had like a shape of a question mark on the side of his face, but he was in a summer coat. And I I kind of think because when he came out of his summer coat last year, it wasn't really there. So I don't know if he just kind of had rubbed up against some stuff, you know, on his summer coat, probably. Because he definitely didn't have it this year. He had some lines on his neck, like you're one buck in here, just some different kind of markings, you know, with that summer coat. But what was interesting, I was telling you on the phone, is that last year his smaller fork on the front was on the opposite side. So I don't know if that he looks like the same buck, and that's I was telling you, you know, I'm like, man, I I think it is. Right. I mean, I haven't seen any more four points in there with eye guards, but it was but his genetics are still there.
SPEAKER_00:And that's the great thing when you find like with your what was your buck's name? Scarface. The one you got this year.
SPEAKER_02:Scarface, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that was Scarface. Yes. Okay. So his genetics, Scarface's genetics, are still there. And yeah, you just kind of let him grow up, and by the time that they're to the point where you want to shoot them, they've already passed along those genetics. Yeah. And so it's almost like finding those great genetic pockets. Yep. And then never telling anybody where they're at. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, it's just a kid in a candy store. It really, really is because you just get jacked watching them. It's addicting. Yeah. And the fun thing that I like is like, okay, so he we ended the season last year, he was a small three. You know, and he may be four and a half, he may wait till five and a half before he makes that big bump. Because typically Blacktails will make one big jump. And so like he goes back, he's a good three, maybe 70 inches. And then you see him the next year and he blew up. Yep. And then it's just like, oh, the main frame is still there. You recognize that, but now, you know, he put on 20 inches or 15 inches, and now he's just like, Oh, yeah, that's awesome. That kind of surprise is what you like when you start going to your cameras and whatnot. But that's Mr.
SPEAKER_02:Krabs from last year. You know, when we were able to do the minerals and the protein and stuff, listen to your podcast talking about making sure you do always do the protein and everything with the minerals. He from last year to this year, he went from like just a three by three to like this one beam up here, just went super tall and forked even. And then he just got wider and bigger forks. I mean, he just blew up.
SPEAKER_03:This buck here lucky was always I watched him for three years before I finally went in on the fourth year. But every year he was just a big three, with spindly, he was really wide, but he just didn't, and so I started just pumping him full of the protein and the minerals and everything, and then he comes out and now he's a four by three, and he just put on a ton of mass. Man, and it was just like, yeah, that's the buck I'm going out. Yeah, yeah. So it's always fun like that when you have a history. So you said that you gotta get the sets for your wife and your dad very soon. So it's happening now. Yeah, how confident are you that you're going to be able to find bucks for them?
SPEAKER_02:Pretty confident. Really pretty confident. I mean, just this year, and then just doing the tree stand thing and then just putting the pieces together. I think the coolest thing about blacktail hunting and then doing your class, especially being a bass fisherman, our minds don't kind of work like some salmon fishermen go out there and you use the same spinners. Obviously, you're changing colors and stuff, but when you're bass fishing, you have to figure them out. They're like the fish are always there, just like the deer, always in the woods, and there's more to what you know already, you know. So I love to just learn. I mean, I'll talk to anybody, and I just gather my head just as much as I can get my head with information. So, like when I went to your class or talk to anybody that shot a nice black tail, even if they do hunt clear cuts or maybe they still hunt timber. I mean, I'm always picking their brain about where they like to bed, the kind of stuff or that day they shot them, or just anything like that. I think it's just the more knowledge I've just had, definitely have some more confidence now. And I'm excited for next year, or my wife or dad this year would be nice to get one of them a buck, too. Absolutely cool.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. So is your wife gonna shoot it from the couch? That's my question.
SPEAKER_02:Well, not this year. We're in an apartment, so I mean, we might be shooting across the Kelso High, you know, the high school might be a little sketchy. Right on, right? Yeah, we moved to apartment, so I mean, it's not too bad, but yeah, we can't really shoot off the gutter this year, you know. That's funny.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, I think that kind of wraps it up. I this has turned into a nice long episode, so I think our listeners are gonna be it'll be the commute to work and then the commute home that they'll get to listen to perfect. That that works out great, but anyway, congratulations on your buck. Thanks, Collie. Beautiful and thank you for coming on and sharing your story with everyone because I think that you talk about the Lord blessed you. Well, now in turn, I think just sharing that story is you being able to bless the all the listeners who are just trying to learn and how to do this. Yep, and always appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02:Say a prayer before you go out there, before you're in your stand for safety and while you're in your stand, that God blesses you with the deer, and and He will. There you go. It's the best place to spend time with Him. Amen. So okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks for joining us, everyone, and we will talk to you next week.
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