Mike Moran & Steve Cole from the Washington Muzzleloaders Association

We’re recording live from the Cascade Mountain Man Muzzle Loading Arms and Pioneer Craft Show, and the background noise is the point, because this world is alive. I sit down with Mike Moran and Steve Cole from the Washington State Muzzle Loaders Association to talk about the people behind traditional muzzleloading in Washington and why the “mountain man” scene is bigger than just rifles. If you’ve ever been curious about black powder, period-correct gear, or how rendezvous culture still brings folks together, this conversation gives you a clear starting map. 

We unpack what a fur trade rendezvous really was, how trappers and fur companies turned remote summer meeting places into a moving supply chain, and why beaver pelts became the king of the market thanks to felt hats. From there, we connect history to modern outdoor life: trapping regulations in Washington, the trapper education class, and the way bushcraft skills like fire building, camp cooking, shelters, and foraging naturally overlap with traditional hunting trips. 

We also get practical about muzzleloading gear and terminology. We talk flintlock, percussion sidelock, and inline ignition, what “black powder” can mean in different contexts, and why more powder doesn’t automatically mean better performance. If you’re new and worried you’ll get judged, don’t be. The best path is simple: use the association’s club list and monthly shoot info, reach out, and let experienced shooters walk you through safe basics. Find them at www.wa muzzle loaders.com. 

If you like learning the why behind the gear, subscribe, share this with a hunting buddy, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What part of traditional muzzleloading do you want to try first?

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Transcript

Live From The Pioneer Craft Show

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast. Just me this week, and I'm here at the Cascade Mountain Man Muzzle Loading Arms and Pioneer Craft Show. So we're going to be talking with Mike Moran and Steve Cole from the Washington State Muzzle Loaders Association. But we want to talk about this event and more about what you guys do with the Muzzle Loader Association. So thank you for taking time out of your day here at the show and being with me and recording this. I really appreciate it. And if you're hearing a lot of background noise, it's because we're recording at the show. Start off, give us some background about Washington State Muzzle Loaders Association.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

So the Muzzle Loaders Association was started in 1985 by a group of muzzle loading enthusiasts and really just to bring the community together to advocate for muzzle loading and other on gun issues, coordinate activities. Back then, the fur trade rendezvous were a big thing going on. And this way we could have an online calendar with coordinated events. Everybody could find out information about the other clubs and where to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

As I was looking through your website, I saw a lot of different groups listed. So this is it's more than just talking about like muzzle loading in the context of hunting or shooting. This it's a little more broad because you emphasize a lot of the period aspect of it. The pre from what I saw, pre-night 1850 or 1840. Pre-1840, yes. Pre-1840. So the mountain man culture with all of this. And I got to walk around the show here. So the Cascade Mountain Men, muzzle loading arms, and pioneer craft show. It's a bit of a mouthful, but I got to walk around the show beforehand for about an hour and a half after we started recording. And first of all, this is a great show. If even if it's not necessarily you would think your thing, I found a wool blanket to buy. I need another one. And some hunting books. Found a couple of blacktail, including Boyd Iverson's book here. But I would recommend, and is it every year? Is it here at the Enam Claw Expo Center? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

So I would recommend go on to the muzzle loader association's website, and we'll get to the get to that later, like how to find you guys. But come out to this event and check it out. It's very friendly people. I've had lots of people, and I feel underdressed compared to a lot a lot of guys here or oddly dressed. I feel more alien with, but it's very friendly people and very welcoming community, from what I can tell. So that's really great. But I see a lot of mountain men groups. I don't know, clubs. What would be the right term there?

SPEAKER_04 3:08

So clubs would be the right term. Next year will be the 50th anniversary of this show. Oh, okay. And if we look back 50 years ago, it was the bicentennial of the country. That's one thing that really got everybody thinking about history and our past, our forefathers, what were they doing? And the frontiersmen, the mountain men really played into that historical look. And so that's where I think the craze really got its big push for traditional muzzle loading and that fur trade reenacting, the colonial reenacting is another big one.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, and so that this covers a lot more than because it says the muzzle loading arms, and I think I saw another posting of it that it was like the muzzle loader gun show, but it it's really a lot more than that. And there are a lot of muzzle loaders here, hand muzzle loaders and rifles, but there's a lot of other stuff here.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

Oh, yeah, there's clothing, there's shooting accessories, there's craft materials, historically accurate camp gear, camp gear.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yeah, and like I said, I picked up my wool blanket and great price for it, too. I was really happy. And it's cool because it's a vintage one, and that was that's what caught my eye. But I see a lot of cast iron and yeah, a lot of cookware and stuff. So it I think if anything, if any of those are any interest, this is a show worth going to. Are you guys part of it the Cascade Men, Mountain Men muzzle loading group club or other clubs like that? Because I don't know which part of the state you're from.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

No, so uh I I'm from we're both from the Tacoma area. Okay, the Cascade Mountain Men are in Issaquah, Washington, and they're just one of the clubs that we have around the state. I saw that there were several, but they're the ones that hit on the idea of putting on this show. And okay, so the show actually belongs to that club, it's not part of the state association. Yes, we just have a booth here and okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Now, are you part of one of those clubs, or do you I imagine you you participate in those activities?

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Yes, I'm a member of the Paul Bunyan Plainsman from Puallop, Washington, as am I.

Fur Trade Rendezvous And Beaver Hats

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Okay, okay. And you were talking, Steve, about you kept bringing up that you would go to certain rendezvous every year. And I'm like, what's a rendezvous? So why don't you tell us about rendezvous and what those are?

SPEAKER_03 5:35

And historically, the rendezvous were where the mountain men would come out of the mountains and they would have their furs they had trapped throughout the winter. Okay. And they would turn in their hides, and it's without going too deep into the woods or into the weeds, they would get credit for the hides that they brought in. Uh-huh. And then with that credit, with the ledger book, they would be able to resupply for the next year. Okay. And it was called a rendezvous, a meeting place. Uh-huh. And it would yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

The fur trade companies at the time figured out that the most economic way to do this was if you had guys out in the mountains, you'd designate a spot that you would meet every summer. It was typically in late June or July. Uh-huh. And so the fur companies would take pack strings full of supplies from St. Louis, and the 1300 miles or so take about two months to get out to the rendezvous point. Okay. So they'd bring all these trade goods, and so they were the buyers of the trappers' furs, and they would and they'd have the supplies that the trappers needed. And so over a period of about three weeks, they'd meet, the sales would go on, one of the supplies was whiskey.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

There was a fair amount of that, get a year supply. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

And then after three weeks, everybody went home. Okay. Back either back to the mountains or back to St. Louis.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

And then the fur companies would, of course, sell the hides to the manufacturers of the products. Like they and they'd head back east. Exactly. The beaver pelts were the king of the fur trade. Oh, were they? Because of the felt hats that were made in England. Oh, okay. So they would actually ship them back, they would be processed to a point so they could survive.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So they do the tanning and or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

They had tanneries and stuff, and they would shave them to make the felt. Okay. And that was the money-making thing at the time.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

If you were a gentleman in Europe, you had to have a castor hat. Castor Americanus is the Latin name for beaver. Okay. And beaver was used. And when we talk about hats, think of a cowboy hat today.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

That material that can be made out of a number of different furs, but beaver was the best. The beaver fur has little barbs on it in their soft under fur. Okay. And so that you would dry the hide, it would get shipped back, they'd shave all that little hair off and make that into the felt. And because of those barbs, it packed together real tightly and real finely. You can get a nice smooth finish and make a very finished top hat or Derby style or whatever the fashion was at the time.

Trapping Rules And Getting Licensed

SPEAKER_00 8:19

I actually, as you're describing this process, it reminds me, I've actually watched a YouTube video of someone who did that. They're like, I wonder if I can do this. Like somebody who had never done it before, just they figured out how I don't know about a book. They researched how to do that. And so they created their own hat. And yeah, interesting process. So do you guys do trapping as well? I know you're both you do the shooting aspect of it and the hunting, but do you do trapping as well? We both hunt. I do some trapping.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Okay. The guy that carries the cages for another guy. For another guy? Actually, a commercial trapper. And I'm going to pull the trigger on actually getting my trapping license so I can do it too.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Now, you you were telling me off air that you have to go through a class to get now. If you want to do it, is there a difference between doing it commercially and doing it for just a personal? Okay, there is. But either way, you still have to take a class.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Yeah. So in Washington State, there's a trapper education class. It's it's online through the state fish and wildlife website. That gets once you complete that, that gets connected to your wild ID profile for your hunting license, similar to hunter education. And once you do that, you can buy a trapper's license. I think it's$40. And that just it's one of the things that's listed on your hunting license.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Okay. Again, that's one of those things that when I had a one day going out deer hunting and during modern season, I had a porcupine walk by me, as I told you guys about. And it's since then it's trapping has been an interest because I'm like thinking, can I shoot that? Because it's just a cool looking animal. And or is that a something you'd have to trap? Or how is it if someone were to if they wanted to go get a porcupine?

SPEAKER_04 10:14

I knew beavers and other animals, and but it's more than just beavers, it would be so in the hunting regulations, it lists beaver, Martin, uh, and a number of other ones as animals you're not allowed to shoot. Okay, because those are fur-bearing animals that can be trapped.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

There's some like bobcats, you can either trap them or shoot them.

Traditional Muzzleloading And Bushcraft Skills

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah. Okay. And I knew about now, are coyotes something that people trap? They can be trapped or shot. Shot. And I knew they because we're talking to a guy who actually during in the midst of recording this of someone who's doing a series on the hunting coyotes and stuff. But at times I've just thought those have they can have some really unique pelt. And yeah, that's an interesting thing to uh to I would say to look at. So you do a lot of the events, so it's just not you, but you also do hunting, but you're doing the traditional style of hunting. So when we're talking about muzzle loading, I think a lot of guys now think of just the inline stuff, but you're doing the traditional, it's not the rifle barrels necessarily, or are they rifled? Oh, they're still okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

The rifled they are rifled barrels, it's just the ignition system is different.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

The ignition system is different, okay. So is there for muzzle loading and it's a distinct group? I think Mike, you and I talked about this, that there's distinct groups where there's the crossover because there's the muzzle loading, there's the historical guys who want to learn all of it, and then as I think the survivalist, I forgot what term, bushcrafting, bushcrafting. Okay, and that's I think a lot of the people who might be listening who who and I still forgot his name again, Dick Preneckey Prenicke. Prenickey. So as his YouTube video is on YouTube, I think a lot of people have watched those. Do you see a lot of that crossover with people who are involved with what you're doing here?

SPEAKER_04 12:12

To some extent, a lot of what we do when we get out in the woods and do our hunting trips, we're doing bushcrafting, yeah. And making fires with flint and steel, cooking over the fire, setting up shelters, pick any time in history we're doing the same thing. Yeah, even today.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Now, whether modern bushcrafters are going back in time and doing it historically, there may not be any anybody doing that, or you know, sometimes they get interested in those basic skills and basic outdoor skills, and then they say, Hey, let's try it. Old school.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, yeah. Okay, but you guys are the historical aspect of it. Is that what drew you? Is the history behind all of this?

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yes, yeah. The short answer is yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah. So, how did you actually get involved with both the association? So we'll start with you, Steve. How did you get involved with the association? Get your start in all of that.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

I came here in 1999. Okay. I was here 83 to 87, and I hadn't heard of it at all. And I was just doing the modern bushcraft type stuff. And then in 99, I reconnected with a friend of mine who had found the association and the rendezvous circuit. And from spring of 99 until present day, I've been going and fine-tuning my gear, my clothing, my firearm, and just actually immersing myself in it a whole lot more.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Yeah. And then for more of the modern bushcraft skills to really that historical aspect of it.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah. So now do you, as part of this, are there reenactments that happen with like during certain events?

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Yes. And you th throughout the year there are various different things. One that comes to mind that I haven't made it to yet, it's outside of Astoria. They actually recreate the salt making that the Lewis and Clark expedition did okay in 2005-2006 when they were at Fort Clatzup. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

So there's a 18,000, 1850. Yes, sorry. That was a long trip.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

I'm glad you corrected that because I totally missed it. But yeah, and and that's one of the subgroups, the Lewis and Clark reenactors.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

But they come out to this as well. They go to, depending upon whether they're into or not, they will come to different rendezvous.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

But they'll set up their Lewis and Clark encampment.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah. Okay. So what about you, Mike? How did you what drew you into all of all of this?

SPEAKER_04 15:56

As a kid, I grew up watching Baby Crockett and Daniel Boone on television and Grizzly Adams. And I wanted to be a mountain man, but I grew up in the suburbs of New Jersey. And so there wasn't much opportunity there. But I did get into Boy Scouts and I spent my youth as a scout and then most of my adult life as an adult scout leader, which got me into the woods and doing the bushcrafting stuff. And I've done in quite a few activities over the course of my 60 years. And but it was 2013 that I ran into Steve at another show we have in Pew Out the Sportsman Show. Okay. And I discovered that hey, there's other people that like this mountain man stuff besides me. I never knew there was an outlet for it. Uh-huh. And well, I just jumped in with both feet at that point.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Okay. I stop and think about it. The because there is an interest for me, but I think of like Swiss Family Robinson, because I grew up on the Puget Sound sailing. And so my thought wasn't necessarily going up into the mountains and all this. It was I'm going to be shipwrecked, and how would I survive? But if you've ever watched that movie, the Disney version of it, you're really wonder how they built that treehouse that they lived in, because a split level with all the monitored amenities, and then how animals from three continents got onto this little island. It's pretty interesting to think of. Now, is there an aspect of this that and I don't know whether or not you guys participate in this, but the foraging aspect because I would think as if you're a mountain man, you're part of getting food isn't necessarily just hunting, but foraging. So is he see any of that involved as well?

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Some of what we Steve and I do involves that. We'll go out and we'll spend a weekend, and part of it's going to be let's for include in our meals some of the stuff that we can find in forage, whether that's mushrooms or plants or spruce needle tea or okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

So it's and actually because it's just that point that it's really broad-based about all the skills. So it's really a unique community because it's the community it as a whole, but then there's the subgroups that I like this and I like this, and but you yet you have these events that where a lot of different people come together, yes. So that's really neat.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

You have the commonality of it, and people will go to whatever level that they want to, whatever level of discomfort, yes, and but we it's a community, we all interact, but then if we're doing something more involved, then it's a much smaller group. Okay, but we meet people that have the same mindset here, yeah, and then we do the whole subculture thing.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

And the nice thing is you can take it, like Steve was saying, to whatever level you want, depending on how much time you have to invest, how much money you have to invest, how many skills you want to learn.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

I heard one time I read somewhere that this guy's goal was if somebody ever found me out dead in the woods, the only way they'd be able to tell I was a modern person was by my dental records.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:35

Where everything, all his gear, all his stuff was all period correct. They'd mistake him for somebody who died 200 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah, and preserved body for 200 years. So let's talk about, and I know we've we touched on this, but when I went on, I was on your website, and I've gone on the website several times and scroll down on your events because you post events for multiple states. So tell us all the states actually that you touch on, because we have listeners in all of those states.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

We've gone down as far as Arizona, I think was the furthest one, but the neighboring states around Washington for sure. Okay. The purpose of the website is to help people do muzzle.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

So if we can get information on something that's happening in Idaho or Montana, there's a lot of big national rendezvous, Fort Ridger, Wyoming, and other ones in Montana in the Rocky Mountains. Yeah. So if we've got information for that, we'll post it. Okay. If anybody sends us something, we'll we'll get that word out to everybody. That's the purpose of the website. Yeah.

Fundraising And Youth Skills Programs

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Be that communications facility to because I I finally scrolled down to the bottom of that page. Because I think if the first few times I just wanted to get an idea, but there's a lot on there, a lot of different events from multiple states. And that's really great that of giving some place where people can find those events if they're interested. So, as far as Washington State Muzzle Loaders Association, what does that group like the we've talked about your personal, what you like to do, but what the goals of that group?

SPEAKER_04 21:11

What are you doing as far as events and the big thing that the association does is it's really an umbrella over the various clubs throughout the state. Okay. We help coordinate efforts through the calendar on the website. What we're doing here at the show is we'll solicit donations from all the vendors here. Okay. And then two weeks from now, we have our big fundraising banquet.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

And we'll have an auction and auction those items off, and then the proceeds from that, then we turn around and give out as youth brands.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Back generally to the clubs. There's also a group called or an event called the Pacific Primitive Rendezvous. Okay. It's a multi-state rendezvous, and we'll give about$1,500 to them for their kids program. Because they have a lot of kids that show up.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

So what are the skills that you're teaching muzzle loading? But are the what all are you teaching youth and those programs?

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Shooting for one.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

But if you come to the rendezvous and you camp out, you've now got camping, you've got fire building, you've got cooking over the fire, tomahawk and knife throwing, different skills, the scavenger hunts for the little kids, just making it fun for them. Okay. So that they're actually getting out into the woods and experiencing it.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Doing some crafts, candle making. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Oh, yeah, all kinds of fun stuff. So are there as far as these local clubs, they're I and I'm thinking of other foundations that have like local chapters, but at I think at one point you had mentioned that they're not necessarily chapters, these are just local clubs that you're kind of a not necessarily the umbrella, but a meeting point. Is that how is that correct? So describe yeah, what's the relationship between the clubs and you guys?

SPEAKER_04 23:00

So the association really is a board of directors. We've got we've got a president, a vice president, a treasurer, and then a couple of directors, and we're all volunteers. And really, all we do is we like I say coordinate efforts between clubs. Clubs support them. If we have a new club that's starting out and wants to get going, we can provide a grant for that. Okay. We can get the word out to people.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Are there a list of these clubs like on your website? On the website, yeah. Okay. And these are not necessarily, they might not say black powder, but or a muzzle loader, but black powder clubs potentially. How do they yeah?

SPEAKER_04 23:38

So the terms muzzle loading and black powder are oftentimes used interchangeably. Yeah. Muzzle loading definitely refers to a firearm that you have to load through the muzzle. If we get into after 1840s, we start getting into the cap and ball revolvers. Okay. And some of the early cartridge guns.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:59

But used black powder. Uh if you think of the movie Quigley Down Under, uh-huh. Tom Selleck and his sharps, that was a black powder cartridge gun because all through the West they were using black powder, but it was in a cartridge gun, not a muzzle-loading gun.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Okay. So thinking of like your 4570, but there's the 4590, the like the 45120, that the 70, 90, 120, all that refers to how many grains of black powder. Exactly. Right. But it's still a cartridge. Okay. Okay. So if they're looking for if they see a black powder club, it's not necessarily a muzzle loader club. Okay. And I bring this up as a newbie to to all of this. Just wanting, it's helpful to actually know all of these differences in terminology and whatnot.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

One often leads into the other.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah. I purchased which I have yet to shoot. And actually, that's what got why I started talking to Steve up to show. I bought an inline thinking I'm gonna muzzle load. Of course, I can't find a unit near me that lets me do a late season muzzle loader. So I just have stuck with modern up till now and stuff. But it's one of those where me just wanting to learn like muzzle loading hunting, but then talking to Steve and getting more. Yes, I can see myself moving into all this because there's that historical aspect.

SPEAKER_04 25:27

And you can use that inline during modern rifle.

Getting Started With Muzzleloaders

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yes, I could, but I also I pistol hunt and the thought, and that granted, I could get a muzzle loader pistol. Actually, I do know where one's at that my uncle built, and I see several around here. I was just gonna say there's a number here, yes, but it yeah, I pistol hunt with during modern season. It's one of those traditions that I picked up for my dad type of thing. Yeah, I'll probably stick with that. But most of it was that late muzzle loader, but anyway, I digress. So now, if someone wanted to learn muzzle loading, do you offer classes, training? Is there a way that they could find out via the muzzle loader association?

SPEAKER_04 26:14

The best thing to do would be to go on our website, go to the monthly club or monthly shoot page. That's going to give a listing of all the different clubs in the area and a point of contact.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:26

And then find the one that's close to you, call up the contact person and say, Hey, I'm new to muzzle loading, I want to get started, and you'll get invited out. Okay, and someone will walk you through there. We don't really have any set classes. In fact, we're one of our guys is trying to get actually NRA muzzle loader certified as an instructor. Okay. But current currently, there's nobody I know that that actually does it NRA certified. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Okay, an actual.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

But all of us will walk you through what's needed. They do touch on it during Hunter's education, but it's really brief. You need before you go shoot, you really need a bit more than just that.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah, and if like me, who took Hunter's education when I was 12 40 years ago, 41 years ago now, yeah. I don't remember anything about it except for I got a little orange card at the end and literally everything else I've forgotten. But yeah, and not necessarily want to go back to Hunter's Hunter's ed again, just for the catch the little bit of muzzle loaders. Okay, so I'm gonna ask this as far as because you guys are both doing traditional versus the inline. Is there any we're better than you type thing going on there? Or is it a pretty open as far as they just like that there's new people getting into muzzle loading?

SPEAKER_03 27:51

It's an individual thing. Because personally, I don't mind. I understand they're inline hunters, yeah. And I think what draws them to it is the additional opportunity to hunt, but the feel and look of an inline is more of what they're familiar with. Yeah, yeah. It's it's just it's something that they're more comfortable with, and I don't have a problem with teaching them how to the technology is technically the same. Yes, it's still a muzzle loader, you still have to have the propellant, you still have to have you don't have to, but you should have a patch or wad to hold the projectile in place, and then you have the ignition system, whether it's an inline cap, uh side lock, percussion cap, or a flint lock. Okay, the different sort of ignition systems, but the technology hasn't changed necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Actually, could you describe those a little bit? So flint lock, the inline, which is like a primer pretty much. Yes, and then what was the third one? The percussion cap.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

But the percussion cap, the historically accurate ones, are they're called side locks. Okay, because the lock is on the side of the rifle. Percussion cap, you're using a small cap that is the ignition system. Once the hammer strikes it, it sets off the cap, kind of like the old cap guns that we played with and sends the spark into the main charge, which fires the rifle. Yeah. Flint lock, you actually have uh flint or and then it strikes the so like a cigarette lighter that lights it. It yes and no, it strikes the frizzin, which there's powder in the pan. Okay, and then it does the exact same thing that the cap does. It's just it's you know, it's actually setting off normally 4F, which is a very fine powder, which you have the flash in the pan, which goes into the touch hole, which is the main charge. Okay, and then it fires it. Okay, and then inline you simply have a cap that's in line with the barrel, yeah, as the name would imply.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

And I say like a primer, because it looks like a big primer, but they also now I know inlines are doing the shotgun primer, yeah, or I think even like mine, I could get where it does a large rifle primer.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

I think it's but anyway, it's just as the technology, and having gone the only time I have shot a muzzle loader once, but it really felt like shooting a rifle. First time, and different states, there's different rules to hunting, but they had a 100 and 200 yard target. First time I shot one, and it was dead on the one-foot plate at 100 yards with the scope. And to me, there it didn't require any special skill. Whereas I would think, like an older style, there's a little more to the skill development potentially, or those just as accurate.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

A lot of it depends on your rifle. If you have a very good quality rifle and a good quality lock, the ignition system, even with a flint lock, the ignition is instantaneous. Okay, and you hold it up, you pull the trigger, and bam, and you hit the target.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

Now, there are things that can go wrong that will slow that ignition process down.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

And yeah, then you have to have good follow through. Yeah. You're holding on your target. And especially with a flint lock, you've got the power powder that goes off in the pan. So now you've got a puff of smoke and a big flame right in front of your face. And so you can't see downrange. You really got to have good follow-through to hold on your target through that process.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah, I was just talking actually, it was a couple days ago, to somebody who that slight delay threw them off from from rifle hunting comparatively.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

Yeah, and it's often known as the flintlock flinch uh-huh or the flinch lock. Yeah. And yeah, it's that comes with practice. It that is a little different, and so you've got to learn to work through that.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

And so, what is so thinking of the rifles that you guys are using, and I'm asking this because I talked to a couple of the guys from CVA who are making a lot of these, like I don't cutting edge technology as far as these modern inlines, but like what is and it surprised me because of the distance that they said that they will hunt at. Granted, they are in states where they can put a full power scope on, but you guys aren't scoping yours at all. So iron side, but what is the effective range for a lot of the equipment that you are using?

SPEAKER_04 32:50

So I shoot a flint lock, it's pretty accurate. I can hit targets at 150 yards, okay, but hunting-wise, I wouldn't take a shot much over 75 yards.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

I'm the same.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Same. We need to get you guys in our class because we don't take shots over 20 yards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

And in the woods in western Washington, get a shot over 20 yards.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

You're not over 20 yards, Carol. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:12

Well, what the inlines did, they did a couple of things. One, because they're modern guns, the metallurgy and the manufacturing is better, so they can withstand higher charges. And the reason you can use higher charges is because you have an elongated bullet. With the traditional guns, you always used a round lead ball. And so you you are stuck with one size for a given gun. But with the inlines, we use elongated bullets that gives you more mass in your projectile, which gives you more impact at your target.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

And but to get it there, you need to put a higher powder charge in. Yeah. Which which gives you a longer, longer, faster shot.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

How many grains do you typically shoot? And is that the right term to say grains of powder? Okay. So it's whether it's a smokeless powder or black powder, it's the same thing. But how many for your equipment, how many grains do you typically are you shooting out of those?

SPEAKER_03 34:10

I use 60 grains. Okay. 60 grains for targets. Okay. For hunting, I take it up to 90.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Okay. And I asked that because I know that a lot of those, like you've mentioned, Mike, that 150 that you can put into those. Which, yeah. I don't know. Can you could you put 150 grains into your rifle? Or would that be just too much?

SPEAKER_04 34:34

So my gun is a modern reproduction of a gun, it's not an original. So it's made with a good quality modern made barrel. Okay. But because I have the round ball, which is a fixed mass, if I put too much weight behind it or too much powder behind it, I use the example of if you've ever thrown a wiffle ball or a ping-pong ball really hard.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:57

Or try and throw a bowling ball really softly, neither one works really good.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

But when you match the powder charge to the weight of the projectile, think of a major league baseball pitcher or a quarterback.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah. Yeah, there's a certain speed. Which is true for even just modern rifle hunting that you're trying to find if people are reloading their own rounds, they're trying to find that the bullet and what power specific powder and what specific amount of powder.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

I do black powder cartridge shooting as well. And we'll on a 70 grain charge, 4570 or a 5070, we'll adjust by two grains, yeah, up or down, and that'll make a difference.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that because I do reloading it. Yeah, I've seen just getting into the the details. And there's some stuff that like 38 Special, I could care less about. It's just drop drop my charge in there, and I'm not like too much, but what I go by what the book, but when I'm my hunting 44 rounds that I use, it's I'm getting into really specific with stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

So that's really so just putting more powder in doesn't necessarily help your cause.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. That's a good education for me because as I'm trying to figure out like how the different systems work.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Because yeah, it's just well, that's another aspect of muzzle loading because you've got everything invested in one shot and you're doing all those steps. Yeah, you really learn and have an appreciation for every little aspect of it, you know, and then you fire it, you get the feedback, did it work or not? Yeah. And then you try it again. So I think it it's a great way to build marksmanship.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

If you want to be a better marksman with a modern rifle by shooting a muzzle loader, you'll build those, you're forced to work on your fundamentals and skills.

Website Info And Final Requests

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Uh-huh. This is actually, it was funny that somebody gave, I remember when I was a kid and I was getting my first 22. Granted, I got the Ruger 1022 with a magazine and boom rapid fire. But the guy there selling, he's no, you need to buy your son a single shot 22. That way he learns how to shoot. And that's very true. If you one at a time, you stop and you think about it because you've got to go through the whole process of reloading. It's not just trying to destroy whatever's in front of you. Okay, so we'll go ahead and wrap up here. Why don't you tell us the website how they can reach out to you guys?

SPEAKER_04 37:24

Okay, the website is www.wa muzzle loaders.com.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Okay. And I know you have your banquet coming up. This is actually gonna probably come out after the banquet, but they can find everything else on the website, all the information. You guys contact information I saw was on there.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah, I would encourage everybody to reach out, come to these events. They are very interesting, especially if you're a history nut, just for that aspect of it. It's really interesting to see all of this stuff. So thank you guys for coming on. I really appreciate it. Yeah, this has been very educational for me and hopefully for all of the listeners as well. And hopefully, not that you're overwhelmed with calls, but people give you a call, reach out to you guys. So if you could like, subscribe, follow, leave a comment, do all those things that really helps with the show. Check us out at Patreon for that community, and we will talk to you all next week.